Project Format - 1080p-23.97fps

Output Format - NTSC Anamorphic

Scaling - Original Size

Enable WSIWYG Output

Not using component.

ronn:

Project Format - 1080p-23.97fps

Output Format - NTSC Anamorphic

Well, there you go. You're watching SD, not HD, and you're watching NTSC (59.94i), not 23.976p.

Job ter Burg:

Well, there you go. You're watching SD, not HD, and you're watching NTSC (59.98i), not 23.976p.

Yes, but I am WATCHING IT (more importantly showing the director) which I could not do before. I had to convert it to 1080i first which was insane for a 90 minute film - or go to full screen playback. I can also just change the project type to 1080p29.97 and output to 1080PsF29.97 and it plays fine. Is THAT SD?

ronn:

Yes, but I am WATCHING IT (more importantly showing the director) which I could not do before.

As said, I've used the MXO2 Mini on a 23.976p HD project. Set the output to 59.98i, and was able to watch the film in HD.

ronn:

I can also just change the project type to 1080p29.97 and output to 1080PsF29.97 and it plays fine. Is THAT SD?

I'm not trying to be smart about it, I'm trying to supply complete and accurate information. The topic was about monitoring HD over HDMI from 23/24/25 HD projects. The question was what consumer models would accept 23.976PsF over HDMI. Just wanted to double check under what conditions your Sony monitor worked for you, and that turns out to be SD. No offense.

Job ter Burg:

ronn:

Yes, but I am WATCHING IT (more importantly showing the director) which I could not do before.

Before what?

As said, I've used the MXO2 Mini on a 23.976p HD project. Set the output to 59.98i, and was able to watch the film in HD.

ronn:

I can also just change the project type to 1080p29.97 and output to 1080PsF29.97 and it plays fine. Is THAT SD?

No, but it will add non-standard pulldown to 29.97p. I would not recommend that.

 

I'm not trying to be smart about it, I'm trying to supply complete and accurate information. The topic was about monitoring HD over HDMI from 23/24/25 HD projects. The question was what consumer models would accept 23.976PsF over HDMI. Just wanted to double check under what conditions your Sony monitor worked for you, and that turns out to be SD. No offense.

My point was that with a different HDMI monitor (Acer H233H) I got a "no compatible signal" response and could not monitor 24p in any flavor from the Matrox. Now I can. And apparently the Sony does accept 24PsF signals. So this is consistent with "the topic." Hopefully my response, while perhaps lacking in your "complete and accurate" description, will help someone else with a similar problem - which is the essence of this forum.

ronn:

apparently the Sony does accept 24PsF signals

I'm sorry, but if your output is set to NTSC Anamorphic (as you described), you are NOT sending 24PsF to the monitor (but rather NTSC 29.97i), so how can you tell? When you're set to NTSC, the MXO2 Mini is outputing 23.976p/HD-over-59.94i/SD, which is NOT the same as 23.976PsF/HD. I appreciate your contribution but you are drawing incorrect conclusions, as far as I can tell.

I'm not sure, but your Acer may have not worked because it is not a video monitor, but a computer monitor (therefore not accepting certain refresh rates?), or maybe it was an issue with HDCP compliance on its DVI input?

P.S. I sense that I'm getting on your nerves. I'm sorry about that. Again, I mean no harm.

Job ter Burg:

ronn:

apparently the Sony does accept 24PsF signals

I'm sorry, but if your output is set to NTSC Anamorphic (as you described), you are NOT sending 24PsF to the monitor, so how can you tell? When you're set to NTSC, the MXO2 Mini is outputing 23.976p-over-59.94i, which is NOT the same as 23.976PsF. I appreciate your contribution but you are drawing incorrect conclusions, as far as I can tell.

 

I'm not sure, but your Acer may have not worked because it is not a video monitor, but a computer monitor, or maybe it was an issue with HDCP compliance on its DVI input?

 

P.S. I sense that I'm getting on your nerves. I'm sorry about that. Again, I mean no harm.

I can be sure because I described two different settings. One was set to NTSC Anamorphic. A second, set to PsF as described (please go back and read). It works with both. If Matrox is set to output 1080 PsF and I see it on the monitor, I assume that's a 1080 PsF signal. Not getting on my nerves.

ronn:

A second, set to PsF as described

But that was 29.97PsF, if I read correctly, which is very similar to 59.94i, which is what all monitors would be able to cope with. The question was which monitors would support 23.976PsF, which is a different signal. Acceptance of 29.97PsF does not imply acceptance of 23.976PsF support. I don't even think the MXO2 Mini with MC5 even allows you to output 23.976PsF, I think that's a new feature for 5.5.

Thanks for the clarification.

Interesting, Michael Phillips writes on the Red forums:

Avid only outputs PsF when in progressive projects. The 5.5 release has a console command to make it P to play nicer with monitors when using HDMI.

Job ter Burg:

Interesting, Michael Phillips writes on the Red forums:

Avid only outputs PsF when in progressive projects. The 5.5 release has a console command to make it P to play nicer with monitors when using HDMI.

So that answers the question of whether or not Avid outputs a P or a PsF signal -- 5.5 will be able to output either.  It also reafirms that PsF signal can indeed be problematic with HDMI monitors.

It's really starting to sound like my early assumptions about the Aja box -- i.e. that although it was more expensive than the Matrox, it was the better choice -- were not necessarily correct.  It now appears that due to this single issue, the Matrox could be the better choice if monitoring 23.976 projects on a normal HDMI consumer monitor is needed.

I wonder if this is something tha Aja could address with firmware, or if there is still some solution that we haven't considered here -- i.e. some way of getting the Aja to work with 24fps projects in MC 5.5 on consumer HDMI monitors.

Larry

lalittle:

5.5 will be able to output either

Not sure if this works with all hardware. Also, console command features are usually not 100% fail safe, otherwise they would have been implemented as regular features. And there must be a reason that the P output is not listed for all devices, just for some.

lalittle:

It now appears that due to this single issue, the Matrox could be the better choice if monitoring 23.976 projects on a normal HDMI consumer monitor is needed.

Depends. If the console command works with the AJA box, the AJA can provide the same P signal as the MXO2 Mini can.

Job ter Burg:

If the console command works with the AJA box, the AJA can provide the same P signal as the MXO2 Mini can.

I'm not sure what you mean here.  The Aja/MC5.5 specs specifically state that ONLY PsF can be output from the Aja box when using MC 5.5, so I don't see how Aja could provide a P signal to the monitor unless the specs change.

Larry

lalittle:

unless the specs change

Exactly. See my Q to Michael on the Red Forums. He's suggesting the feature is / will be available, even on DX boxes (which in the spec sheet are also listed to only support PsF output, not P output).

We should know next week, I guess. And I'm pretty sure some folks here will try out various monitors / TV's and report back with model numbers, so more things may fall into place then.

So to summarize, because I need to buy one of the two boxes asap.

MXO2 Mini

Will output HDMI 1080P24 to a consumer tv or 1080Psf to a professional HD monitor. Could ingest through a stand-alone app or in FCP, but no machine-deck control, so limited useability

IO Express

Can only output 1080Psf to professional HD monitors through SDI or HDMI. No 1080P so you can't connect it to a consumer HDMI monitor, because most of them can't handle Psf signals. Since the specs of the IO express say that it can do 1080P, this appears to be a driver issue that might be resolved in the future. Can't ingest in Avid 24p projects, so that makes it less usefull for film projects that got TK'd on dBeta.

In the end, for film editors both boxes will probably only serve as a monitoring solution. So the MXO2 has more to offer at the moment, since it's cheaper and you can connect it to a decent Panasonic consumer Plasma. Or am I missing something ?