Latest post Sat, Sep 3 2022 8:07 AM by Mercer. 11 replies.
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  • Mon, Aug 29 2022 5:39 PM

    SD DV files misintepreted

    I am sure I have mentioned this before but here we are again. I'm in MC 2022.7 (but I saw this in earlier releases). Linking to PAL SD Quicktimes (DV 4.2.0), on a Mac (Big Sur 11.6.8 here), in Source Settings, a colour transformation 'from' Canon Log C is applied, wrecking the appearance of the video. If I remove the transformation, things revert to normal. Why? Just tried this in Windows ... oh, look, an inappropriate Arri alexa transformation is applied. I know this is a niche interest but I imagine there is a lot of archive SD footage out there.

     


    iMac i5 27", 40GB RAM, OS 11.6.4 with MC 2022.7 with Symphony option, BlackMagic 4K. 2020 MacBook Air with MC 2022.7 ... and NewsCutter 7.x on Dell... [view my complete system specs]

    With best wishes, Roger Shufflebottom

    ACI, Dorset, UK. www.avid-companion.co.uk

  • Mon, Aug 29 2022 10:33 PM In reply to

    Re: SD DV files misintepreted

    Roger Shufflebottom:
     

     I know this is a niche interest but I imagine there is a lot of archive SD footage out there.

    FWIW I have found the following to work for me as I have a ton of archive footage and masters here dating back to well before DV was thought of.  My current core belief is that Media input management is best done using Resolve and Editing is best done using MC.

    After the first month of trying linking in MC I have never used it again. Instead I use a Sony HDV deck with an SDI output into Resolve or a BM Hyper deck disk recorder 

    Link to the Hyperdecks hard drive into Resolve and create a Source timeline for export (delivery) to MC using the Avid AAF template. Set the output to a valid MC media folder.

    Open the MC Project and drag the Resolve created AAF into a MC project folder.  This gives me the a source master footage timeline effectively with the footage "imported'  to MC. The Resolve export is much faster than an a MC direct import.

    From MC I export an AAF of the timeline, without footage.This lets me open the AAF  in the original Resolve Project and automatically links to the original full resolution media

    In your case with DV tape masters just capture into Resolve. Or if with digital DV hard drive files link with Resolve make a source timeline and export as above to MC.

    I have done this many times since discarding MC's link, all without issues.

     

     

  • Tue, Aug 30 2022 11:18 AM In reply to

    • Mercer
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    Re: SD DV files misintepreted

    AndrewAction:
    After the first month of trying linking in MC I have never used it again. Instead I use a Sony HDV deck with an SDI output into Resolve or a BM Hyper deck disk recorder 

    Why the need to capture in Resolve? I think Roger is linking to DV files and yes Avid sometimes applies automatic colour transforms, inexplicably, that are wrong. There should be no problem with capture within Avid. I have a JVC HDV deck that I capture from occaisionally, via HDMI> BM Ultrastudio Mini 4K, with deck control and have not experienced any colour shift with either DVCam or HDV.

    MC with Symphony option, 2022.10, HP ZBook 17 G5, i7-8850H 6 core/64GB ram/512 M2 ssd/Nvidia Quadro P5200/16GB/FHD, HP Thunderbolt Dock G2, BMD Ultrastudio... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Aug 30 2022 9:18 PM In reply to

    Re: SD DV files misintepreted

    Mercer:
    Why the need to capture in Resolve?
    There is no NEED! The process described was to avoid linking into MC and the possible issues that has been causing Roger. 

     My preferred choice , if I have to capture, is capture is directly to a hard drive or media card in the BM Hyperdeck. I "Link" this into a Resolve projects Media pool.

    WHY not capture to MC or Resolve? The deck and Hyperdeck are independent of both MC and Resolve and will capture timecode if wanted.  A complete background process

    The Resolve project lets ME control and apply exactly the processing I choose/need with real time scopes confirming I am delivering what I expect from the resolutions I subsequently deliver (export) from Resolve to my MC's media folder.

  • Wed, Aug 31 2022 6:46 AM In reply to

    • Mercer
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    Re: SD DV files misintepreted

    AndrewAction:

    My preferred choice , if I have to capture, is capture is directly to a hard drive or media card in the BM Hyperdeck. I "Link" this into a Resolve projects Media pool.

    WHY not capture to MC or Resolve? The deck and Hyperdeck are independent of both MC and Resolve and will capture timecode if wanted.  A complete background process

    The Resolve project lets ME control and apply exactly the processing I choose/need with real time scopes confirming I am delivering what I expect from the resolutions I subsequently deliver (export) from Resolve to my MC's media folder.

     

    So you are capturing to BM's Media Express, Andrew? Or something else, because your deck is on a seperate station? I would understand this but capturing directly to Avid (or Resolve) digitally with TC is accurate for me via Rs422 connected to the Ultrastudio and obviously either HDMI or SDI doesn't require scopes.

    If you are preprocessing DV footage, for example deinterlacing, NR, CC and upscaling to HD etc., then exporting that directly as MXFs to Avid media folders? Again I understand how that workflow could work, and I do that myself, (more with timelines, after assembly or picture lock, round trip) because Resolve is so much more powerful, in that regard, though it's obviously more involved than for just direct capture, within Avid and the HDMI output of my JVC deck does a creditable job of upscaling both DV and 720p to 1080i on capture (though nowhere near as good as Resolve). Maybe I have still misunderstood?

    What I have found, similar to Roger, is there is sometimes an inconsistentancy, with the way Avid applies luts or colour adaptors automatically to linked footage. I have found this with Sony footage from the FS7, where some shots will have S-log applied, or the wrong S-log, and others nothing. I've never linked to DV files and in theory Avid should not be applying anything but I can see it could be possible. I think there is a way to switch that off in the Source browser though, if I remember correctly.

     

    MC with Symphony option, 2022.10, HP ZBook 17 G5, i7-8850H 6 core/64GB ram/512 M2 ssd/Nvidia Quadro P5200/16GB/FHD, HP Thunderbolt Dock G2, BMD Ultrastudio... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Aug 31 2022 7:13 AM In reply to

    Re: SD DV files misintepreted

    Your solution is not good for me. These files have been used for a number of years and are used for teaching. They are well suited to this purpose and have accompanying scripts and logs. I will have to convert them. BTW, this is not an issue in MC 2018.12.15 which I have on another ssystem for testing such anomalies. Clearly, something has changed in 2021 and 2022 releases. I have to live with a recent release at the university.

    iMac i5 27", 40GB RAM, OS 11.6.4 with MC 2022.7 with Symphony option, BlackMagic 4K. 2020 MacBook Air with MC 2022.7 ... and NewsCutter 7.x on Dell... [view my complete system specs]

    With best wishes, Roger Shufflebottom

    ACI, Dorset, UK. www.avid-companion.co.uk

  • Wed, Aug 31 2022 8:37 AM In reply to

    • Mercer
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    • Joined on Thu, Apr 15 2010
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    Re: SD DV files misintepreted

    Roger Shufflebottom:
    Your solution is not good for me.

    Which solution? Can you import them rather than linking? There should be no change if you import, with no change, to DV25, for example.

    MC with Symphony option, 2022.10, HP ZBook 17 G5, i7-8850H 6 core/64GB ram/512 M2 ssd/Nvidia Quadro P5200/16GB/FHD, HP Thunderbolt Dock G2, BMD Ultrastudio... [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Sep 1 2022 12:49 AM In reply to

    Re: SD DV files misintepreted

    Mercer:
    So you are capturing to BM's Media Express, Andrew?
    No. From a VHS or DV/HDV or Umatic HiBandSP or Beta SP or HDCAM  into my BM Hyperdeck. This unit has 2 mounting slots for portable SSD drives and 2 high speed card slots.

    If I choose to deinterlace and or scale. (SD 4:3 to double size with sidebars and output HD)I add a TeranexAV to the SDI chain before the Hyperdeck recorder. The original tape timecode is not relevant to me as 95% of my use for this system is for restoration.  The Hyperdeck has RS 422 options that I have not needed to explore yet.

    Mercer:
    obviously either HDMI or SDI doesn't require scopes.
    I was referring to checking my output integrity from a Resolves Projects linked media timeline to my required Avid MC format.  This would allow me to spot issues (never have) like Roger has found at the earliest opportunity.

    Mercer:
    with Sony footage from the FS7, where some shots will have S-log applied, or the wrong S-log, and others nothing.
    For any footage like this I would use a Resolve Project where I can "Link" to the file, find the best colour space transform FX or LUT for me and deliver that directly into my Avid Media folder. Visual checks available at every stage of the process and Resolve never touches the original file.

    All of the above is just what I have found to be the most effective fast and trouble free workflow to get working media into my very long term favorite Editor.

  • Thu, Sep 1 2022 8:19 AM In reply to

    • Mercer
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Apr 15 2010
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    Re: SD DV files misintepreted

    AndrewAction:
    No. From a VHS or DV/HDV or Umatic HiBandSP or Beta SP or HDCAM  into my BM Hyperdeck.

    Gotcha, I was thinking of BM cards and US, I'd forgotten the Hyperdeck was a recorder. Makes sense. I rarely have need to capture tapes now. Sold 2 Digibetas for a song years ago. I had some top line DVcam decks DSR2000/DSR1500, they went too. I just kept the JVC BR-HD50, since I had quite a few DVcam and 720p (JVC HD100) tapes to still capture. Presumably you have a TBC in the chain too, for the analogue material?

    I don't touch this stuff these days for clients, unless it's archive but I made a TV series years ago, shot mostly on DSR570s, that was broadcast and released on DVD. I still had the Avid project files but a few were corrupt and I managed to find the rushes. So it was a lockdown project in restoration, which interests me greatly, plus Blu-Ray. Paid work has got in the way but that old interlaced DVCam SD footage scales quite nicely. Resolve is the business for this kind of stuff and Video Enhance AI from Topaz too.Yes

    MC with Symphony option, 2022.10, HP ZBook 17 G5, i7-8850H 6 core/64GB ram/512 M2 ssd/Nvidia Quadro P5200/16GB/FHD, HP Thunderbolt Dock G2, BMD Ultrastudio... [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Sep 1 2022 1:23 PM In reply to

    Re: SD DV files misintepreted

    Mercer wrote: "Can you import them rather than linking? There should be no change if you import, with no change, to DV25, for example."

    It's a thought, but I don't want to get 80 students importing the files and filling up our media spaces with a load of duplicated gigabytes! I did try your suggestion - I get a 'Can't import this file - do you wish to link and Transcode?' message. That actually works and the files look correct. I've exported them all as SD MXF - they link correctly so I'll use those. I did think that it was a MacOS 32bit/64bit issue but as you can see in my screenshots, there is a problem in Windows, too.

    iMac i5 27", 40GB RAM, OS 11.6.4 with MC 2022.7 with Symphony option, BlackMagic 4K. 2020 MacBook Air with MC 2022.7 ... and NewsCutter 7.x on Dell... [view my complete system specs]

    With best wishes, Roger Shufflebottom

    ACI, Dorset, UK. www.avid-companion.co.uk

  • Fri, Sep 2 2022 12:18 AM In reply to

    Re: SD DV files misintepreted

    Mercer:
    Sold 2 Digibetas for a song years ago.
    I wish I had known about them back then!!!

    I skipped Digibeta and went with a very early uptake of HDCAM. No drones back then and my gyro stabilised helicopter cameraperson opted for HDCam SR   For DV/HDV still using Sony HVR1500's.

    Mercer:
    Resolve is the business for this kind of stuff and Video Enhance AI from Topaz too
    Topas AI led me to buying the HyperDeck and Teranex. Topaz modules only processing progressive footage (apart from the deinterlace module) was a serious issue for me as the rendering was taking up to 48 hours rendering per AI module and two passes required for any interlacce masters. The Teranex does deinterlacing and resizing in one real time take that does not use use my computers so it quickly paid for itself. The Topasx Chronos module has worked very well for changing frame rates here.

    Mercer:
    Presumably you have a TBC in the chain too, for the analogue material?
    Yes for from VHS and UMatic tapes.

    Roger Shufflebottom:
    I don't want to get 80 students importing the files and filling up our media spaces with a load of duplicated gigabytes!

    Do the students all read from shared storage?  If so would linking the media into a Resolve project and rendering it out of Resolve via AAF and media, into a designated Avid media folder work for you??

  • Sat, Sep 3 2022 8:07 AM In reply to

    • Mercer
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Apr 15 2010
    • UK
    • Posts 829
    • Points 10,660

    Re: SD DV files misintepreted

    AndrewAction:
    I skipped Digibeta and went with a very early uptake of HDCAM. No drones back then and my gyro stabilised helicopter cameraperson opted for HDCam SR   For DV/HDV still using Sony HVR1500's.

    The transition to HD, in the late 2000s wiped me out for a time. I had 6 Avid suites, 1 Protools, Editshare server, 6 ENG cameras/ expensive Canon J series lenses, and kit, 2 full sound kits with boom/radio mics, 2 Digis, 10 other decks and a warehouse full of gear. Hardware mostly SD. A nice little business delivering content, filmed all over Europe, to UK satellite channels, production to online, with a final mastered Digibeta. Then on top of the 2008 world economic crisis (my main client folded) the cost of buying HD cameras and HDCam decks, or 1 at least, was a no go. I sold most everything as fast as I could - I think 1 Digibeta that cost 20K sterling new, went for 4K, I was lucky, now you can get them for nothing on Ebay.

    I ended up with 1 dongle and the JVC cam and deck, tripod and 1 sound kit. Now I have one online/offline suite with Grade A monitor and one full 4K ENG kit, which will see me out to retirement. File delivery means no need for those old clunky decks now. I saw one the other day in a facility, I hadn't seen them for years - it wasn't working. I hear you on Topaz, very slow, if I was called on often for that type of paid work, I'd get a Terranex too.

    MC with Symphony option, 2022.10, HP ZBook 17 G5, i7-8850H 6 core/64GB ram/512 M2 ssd/Nvidia Quadro P5200/16GB/FHD, HP Thunderbolt Dock G2, BMD Ultrastudio... [view my complete system specs]
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