Latest post Fri, Aug 12 2022 8:57 AM by Roger Shufflebottom. 15 replies.
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  • Wed, Aug 3 2022 2:49 PM

    • marluc
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    Desperate for help with interlaced project

    Is it possible for me to create and export from Media Composer 2022 on Mac OS Catalina as the following:

    ProRes 422HQ

    D1/DV NTSC (0.9091) 

    interlaced

    lower field first

    non-square pixels

    Please help.  I am going nuts trying to get this old project to export correctly to view on CRT monitors!

     

    Many thanks,marluc

    DESKTOP: 27" iMac/3.5GHz Quad Core i7/ 32 GB 1600 MHz DDR3, 8GB/1TBFlash Storage/NVIDIA GTX 780M 4GB, running OS X 10.15.6 and MC Ultimate version... [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Aug 4 2022 1:42 PM In reply to

    Re: Desperate for help with interlaced project

    Hi, this might help: https://community.avid.com/forums/p/160685/810764.aspx

    So far i've never actually had to work in interlaced so I don't know how to setup interlaced avid projects...

    Editing Movie Magic.

    My Equipment & System Specs

    Media Composer Ultimate 2022.12.2 | Pro Tools Studio 2022.21 | Sibelius Artist 2022.12 

  • Thu, Aug 4 2022 3:15 PM In reply to

    • marluc
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    Re: Desperate for help with interlaced project

    Yes, Philip, it seems that Avid has dropped certqain legacy capabilities and everyone I have spoken with thinks it can't be done with the current MC version.  I never should have upgraded my OS or my Avid app, but at the time I didn't realize what the consequences would be.  Those of us who are old enough to have worked in these early formats need access to older versions of everything and should NEVER upgrade on at leaste one computer saved for that purpose. What I need is Avid MC 2018+ and whatever Mac OS supported that. What do I do?  Wipe out one computer and go bacwards?  Oh my!

    marluc

    DESKTOP: 27" iMac/3.5GHz Quad Core i7/ 32 GB 1600 MHz DDR3, 8GB/1TBFlash Storage/NVIDIA GTX 780M 4GB, running OS X 10.15.6 and MC Ultimate version... [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Aug 4 2022 3:58 PM In reply to

    • dlogneb
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    Re: Desperate for help with interlaced project

    A Windows PC might be your answer.

    Avid MC 2022.10 & 2022.7 Mac Os Monterey (12.6.1 & 12.3.1) MacStudio Apple M1 Ultra 128GB [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Aug 4 2022 6:42 PM In reply to

    Re: Desperate for help with interlaced project

    marluc:
    it seems that Avid has dropped certqain legacy capabilities and everyone I have spoken with thinks it can't be done with the current MC version.

    I don't get that. If you are in an SD project, set to interlaced in the Format settings (PAL or NTSC), you should simply choose File, Export to File, click Options, choose MOV from the dropdown menu, and choose

    - Source Raster: Project Raster

    - Image Preset: NTSC (image size will show 720x486), choose Aspect Ratio 4:3 (pixel aspect ratio will flip to 0.9:1)

    - Frame Rate: choose 59.94i for NTSC

    - Color Space: Keep As Legal Range

    - Compression: Apple Pro Res, ProRes 422 HQ

    - Audio: PCM, stereo

     

    Are you saying none of this works for you?

     

    I mean, following your requirements here:

    ProRes 422HQ - That's available in MOV exports

    D1/DV NTSC (0.9091) - D1 NTSC would be 720x486, standard

    interlaced - this option is available under frame rate

    lower field first - I think this is a given for NTSC, but I'm not entirely sure about this one

    non-square pixels - that's implicit in the 720x486 D1 NTSC 0.9091 spec

     

     

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Aug 4 2022 6:52 PM In reply to

    Re: Desperate for help with interlaced project

    OK, darn, I just noticed there is no 59.94i frame rate available in the MOV exporter.

    Can you try to export MXF Op1A instead, then use Shutter Encoder to re-wrap from MXF to MOV?

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Aug 4 2022 8:07 PM In reply to

    • marluc
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    Re: Desperate for help with interlaced project

    Unfortunately, it always comes out Progressive. All contemporary versions are geared towards progressive.  Interlaced is a thing of the past, and there is no solution escept NEVER TO UPGRADE!

    marluc

    DESKTOP: 27" iMac/3.5GHz Quad Core i7/ 32 GB 1600 MHz DDR3, 8GB/1TBFlash Storage/NVIDIA GTX 780M 4GB, running OS X 10.15.6 and MC Ultimate version... [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Aug 5 2022 2:55 PM In reply to

    Re: Desperate for help with interlaced project

    Does the legacy quicktime engine not have this format? It should be under QuickTime movie in the export settings?

    Editing Movie Magic.

    My Equipment & System Specs

    Media Composer Ultimate 2022.12.2 | Pro Tools Studio 2022.21 | Sibelius Artist 2022.12 

  • Fri, Aug 5 2022 3:53 PM In reply to

    Re: Desperate for help with interlaced project

    Philip Kapadia:

    Does the legacy quicktime engine not have this format? It should be under QuickTime movie in the export settings?

    marluc is running a post-Mojave Mac system, so no access to 32-bit apps, meaning no access to Quicktime.

     

    Media Composer 2024.2 w/Symphony/SS/PF options, HP Z-Book G6 17", i7-9850H 2.60GHz, 32gb RAM, NVIDIA Quadro RTX 3000, Blackmagic UltraStudio Mini... [view my complete system specs]

    "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who only consider the price are this man's lawful prey."  - John Ruskin (1819-1900)

     

    Carl Amoscato | Freelance Film & Video Editor | London, UK

  • Fri, Aug 5 2022 4:54 PM In reply to

    Re: Desperate for help with interlaced project

    marluc:

    Is it possible for me to create and export from Media Composer 2022 on Mac OS Catalina as the following:

    ProRes 422HQ

    D1/DV NTSC (0.9091) 

    interlaced

    lower field first

    non-square pixels

     

    Hello,

    MOV exporting in modern versions of Media Composer utilizes the UME exporting rather than Quicktime. So yes, the dialogue window you see is different. However changes were made to accommodate this. It is now dynamically detecting the resolutions and the project frame rate, and then presenting options for exportig based on that. 

    For example, I am currently running MC 2022.7 and am in a 1080i5994 project, dealing with DNxHD HQ clips that are interlaced. I can hit export, and I can see MOV as the export platform, and then inside of that window, I can indeed see 59.94i as a format.

    However in the US, interlaced exports for broadcast are all upper-field first. I see on your specs you are showing lower-field first. I haven't tested this myself, but it might be a reason why the detection is not happening. Are you able to load an upper-field first clip into the Source Window and test its export list?

    Quite often when working with other editors in the past, I remember them using lower-field first as a method of exporting clips that are interlaced in order to get them to "look good" in progressive projects. Could it be possible that you need to go back to the original interlaced video fotage and commission them to be re-exported?

     

    ------

    Chris Bové
    Manager, Avid's Digital Customer Success Team
    [email protected] 

  • Tue, Aug 9 2022 11:14 PM In reply to

    • Editmvp
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    Re: Desperate for help with interlaced project

    Hi Chris, I've been testing the new export capabilities with 22.7 and have found that even with a NTSC 30i project created, a 720x486 30i with lower field first will only export as progressive or upper field first.  The NTSC 720x486 preset only allows the 16x9 option at 59.94i.  When changed to 4x3 aspect ratio, the 59.94i option is not available.  AFAIK, NTSC 30i has always been lower field first and was the broadcast standard for decades prior to HDTV.  The only way to correct it is to give the operator the option to choose the correct field order for the project.  Otherwise, the only current work around I can find is to use an older version of MC.

    Primary System: Media Composer Ultimate 2024.2 | Avid Artist DNxIO | iMac 2020 i9 10-Core 3.6/128GB/2TB-SSD/Radeon Pro 16GB / OS 14.2.1 | Artist Color... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Aug 9 2022 11:38 PM In reply to

    Re: Desperate for help with interlaced project

    There may be a discrepancy in the way different broadcasters ask for deliverables. 

     

    I've spent my years delivering to PBS, which demands upper field first. You can refer to this guide on page 5, addendum 3.6.2 on "Field Dominance": http://bento.cdn.pbs.org/hostedbento-prod/filer_public/PBS_About/Producing/Red%20Book/TOS%20Pt%201%20Submission%202016.pdf

    In times when I was contracted as an archivist for museums, all of our exports in 720x486 at 30i were upper field first. When colleagues of mine did the work in lower-field first, and it was played back on older DVD players, that's when jittering was seen and I was brought in to fix their work... which of course meant redoing it, since field dominance conversions really didn't exist in any sort of a good way back then. 

     

    Is there any way to obtain the original media you gained access to and have it digitized brand new, thus existing in a fully upper-field-first flow?

     

    ------

    Chris Bové
    Manager, Avid's Digital Customer Success Team
    [email protected] 

  • Wed, Aug 10 2022 10:17 PM In reply to

    • Editmvp
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    Re: Desperate for help with interlaced project

    Hi Chris, I too spent years delivering to PBS, a long time ago before HD, and at that time, PBS required delivery at Standard Def NTSC 601 Lower Field First.  I still have copies of several Frontline Docs I edited that were originally delivered on 1" videotape and it was definitley NTSC 601 Lower Field First. Also, the PBS document you referenced was published in 2016, long past standard def specs.  As marluc originally posted, he needs the video to display properly on old CRT monitors.  In order to do this, he must be able to export as NTSC 601 Lower Field First. Unfortunately, the current version of Media Composer does not support it.  Here's a link to a Avid Knowledge Base article that discusses NTSC Lower Field First.  https://avid.secure.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/user_guide/en392963

    I have also authored thousands of standard def NTSC DVDs.  To get NTSC video to play properly without jitter, they must be either Lower Field First or Progressive. If you have Adobe Media Encoder, look at the any of the default presets for DVD encoding and they're all either Lower Field First or Progressive.

    Regards,

    Jack

    Here's a list of legacy videotape formats.  All are Lower Field First.

    Standard Definition Formats

    3⁄4” Umatic, DVCAM, DV, VHS, Laser Disk, Betamax, 1” video and 2” video sources:

    Master

    File Format/Extension: .mov
    Compression: DV-NTSC (DV-25)
    Resolution: 720x480 (DV 0.9 pixel ratio, actual display resolution 640x480) Frame Rate: 29.97 fps
    Aspect Ratio: Match source (most are 4:3)
    Field Dominance: Lower Field First
    Audio: 16-bit 48 kHz mono or stereo (match source)
    Audio Levels: Average digital reference level between -12 to -20 dB

    Access (created from Master)

    File Format/Extension: .mp4
    Compression: MPEG-4 H.264 Target Bitrate 1.2 Mbps, Maximum Bitrate 2 Mbps Resolution: 640x480
    Frame Rate: 29.97 fps
    Aspect Ratio: Match source
    Field Dominance: Lower Field First
    Audio: AAC at 128 kbps 48 kHz mono or stereo (match source)

    Beta SP, Digital Betacam, 16mm and 8mm film sources:*

    Master

    File Format/Extension: .mov
    Compression: DV50-NTSC (DVCPro-50)
    Resolution: 720x480 (DV 0.9 pixel ratio, actual display resolution 640x480) Frame Rate: 29.97 fps
    Aspect Ratio: Match source (most are 4:3)
    Field Dominance: Lower Field First
    Audio: 16-bit 48 kHz mono or stereo (match source, film mono)
    Audio Levels: Average digital reference level between -12 to -20 dB

    Access (created from Master)

    File Format/Extension: .mp4
    Compression: MPEG-4 H.264 Target Bitrate 1.2 Mbps, Maximum Bitrate 2 Mbps Resolution: 640x480
    Frame Rate: 29.97 fps
    Aspect Ratio: Match source
    Field Dominance: Lower Field First
    Audio: AAC at 128 kbps 48 kHz mono or stereo (match source, film mono)

    Primary System: Media Composer Ultimate 2024.2 | Avid Artist DNxIO | iMac 2020 i9 10-Core 3.6/128GB/2TB-SSD/Radeon Pro 16GB / OS 14.2.1 | Artist Color... [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Aug 11 2022 10:59 AM In reply to

    Re: Desperate for help with interlaced project

    Thanks Jack for the clarification, and for proving me wrong on a few topics.  I totally appreciate the fact-driven evidence!!!

    This actually dusts off my brain about something... 

    I think it might be possible to export in the way marluc is asking for... I'm not in front of my machine right now, but I seem to remembe that if you change the project type to HD 1080 -> HD 1080i/59.94 TR 1440, which is the legacy HDV project type for capturing HDV via Firewire... then it might unlock the export settings required.

    If not... then it is possible that those settings were only existing as part of the old QuickTime media engine, before UME came along in the MC 2020 series... and that can't work on any system with Catalina or newer.  Granted, I'm only speculating here.  

     

    ------

    Chris Bové
    Manager, Avid's Digital Customer Success Team
    [email protected] 

  • Thu, Aug 11 2022 5:02 PM In reply to

    • Editmvp
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    • Joined on Wed, Sep 3 2008
    • Billings, Montana
    • Posts 176
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    Re: Desperate for help with interlaced project - work-around?

    The UME File Export on the current system has a NTSC 720x486 preset with a 59.94i option that defaults to 16x9 aspect ratio. However, if you change the aspect ratio to 4:3, the 59.94i option is no longer available - only progressive options. But no matter what options you choose, it seems to only create Upper Field First exports.

    I did find a work-around for marluc, if all else fails. If you choose Export As: Graphic, you can export as Sequential Files AND you can choose the proper File Field Order.  I did a quick test on an old NTCS 30i 4x3 file with Lower Field First exported as a PNG sequence and was able to create a ProRes 422HQ video with the exact specs marluc required using Adobe Media Encoder.  Not the best plan, but it would work.

    Primary System: Media Composer Ultimate 2024.2 | Avid Artist DNxIO | iMac 2020 i9 10-Core 3.6/128GB/2TB-SSD/Radeon Pro 16GB / OS 14.2.1 | Artist Color... [view my complete system specs]
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