Latest post Fri, Sep 30 2022 8:41 PM by AlyssaM. 27 replies.
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  • Tue, Oct 19 2021 10:18 AM In reply to

    Re: SMPTE bars and tone leaders - Templates

    Mercer:

    Philip Kapadia:

    Thank you both. Yes, I know about Job Ter Burg's leaders - I spoke to him privately regarding this. The video engineers I know very well and work with don't agree with his statement on his site:

    "Some people mistakenly assume that a 25fps film project (sometimes used in Europe) should have a 25fps leader, but it should not. A film leader is a film leader, 192 frames in length, either counting SMPTE (8 seconds measured at 24fps) or Academy (12 feet of 35mm 4-perf)."

    They say that 25fps projects need 25fps leaders. (I got a long and complicated response from them)

    I don't think it is particularly helpful to ask questions Phillip and then imply someone like Job, who is well respected here and has offered a very useful resource, is wrong. I'm sure those video engineers weren't wrong but didn't know the reason for that resourceSmile

    The Academy countdown leader and Bars, Tone clock serve two very different functions in two different areas. The countdown was for film sync (Apart from the lab there was a projector loop seperation between picture and optical sound track that had to be manually set often), focus, frame rack, projection line up, whilst the other is for video technical standards calibration and consistency, i.e Bars @100% (Millivolts), 1KHz tone @ -18db, the clock is a production number and company ident and rarely carries a 1 frame tone sync at minus 3 seconds, now. Pre-screen focus and picture/screen line up is still necessary in digital cinemas, therefore the countdown leader has survived.

    Well, the only reason I brought my private conversation with Job Ter Burg up was because Carl mentioned his leaders. I wasn't asking questions about Job's leaders in the first place. I think it's healthy to have discussions like this and debates, we all learn from that.

    I think ultimately (I agreed with this in an earlier response on this thread) Job Ter Burg's leaders are as you say for film sync, and I was talking to (likewise high profile people) about TV distribution leaders. I'm sure you can appreciate why I was trying to get to the bottom of this, when two different editors/engineers were telling me two different things.

    I now understand that the conversion from 24fps to 25fps on a "film leader" as you say is fine, but isn't accurate on a (Pat called it) headbuild for TV and broadcast. These are things I would have never explored on my own. 

     

    Editing Movie Magic.

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  • Tue, Oct 19 2021 12:05 PM In reply to

    Re: SMPTE bars and tone leaders - Templates

    Mercer:
    I don't think it is particularly helpful to ask questions Phillip and then imply someone like Job, who is well respected here and has offered a very useful resource, is wrong. I'm sure those video engineers weren't wrong but didn't know the reason for that resource

    Hi Mercer,

    For context: Philip had already conveyed me the video engineer's reply privately, and in more detail, and that was particularly respectful.

    I have amended the text on the webpage where I share my leaders.

    J

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Oct 19 2021 12:19 PM In reply to

    Re: SMPTE bars and tone leaders - Templates

    Philip Kapadia:
    the only reason I brought my private conversation with Job Ter Burg up was because Carl mentioned his leaders.

    As long as we're all setting the record straight, it was Luca who mentioned Job's leader page. All I did was provide a link. Smile

    Media Composer 2022.10 w/Symphony/SS/PF options, HP Z-Book G6 17", i7-9850H 2.60GHz, 32gb RAM, NVIDIA Quadro RTX 3000, Blackmagic UltraStudio Mini... [view my complete system specs]

    "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who only consider the price are this man's lawful prey."  - John Ruskin (1819-1900)

     

    Carl Amoscato | Freelance Film & Video Editor | London, UK

  • Tue, Oct 19 2021 12:23 PM In reply to

    Re: SMPTE bars and tone leaders - Templates

    camoscato:

    Philip Kapadia:
    the only reason I brought my private conversation with Job Ter Burg up was because Carl mentioned his leaders.

    As long as we're all setting the record straight, it was Luca who mentioned Job's leader page. All I did was provide a link. Smile

    Oh yes, That's right. Sorry! 

    Editing Movie Magic.

    My Equipment & System Specs

    Media Composer Ultimate 2022.7 | Pro Tools Studio 2022.7 | Avid Play | Sibelius Artist 2022.7

  • Wed, Oct 20 2021 9:43 PM In reply to

    • Mercer
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    Re: SMPTE bars and tone leaders - Templates

    Job ter Burg:

    Hi Mercer,

    For context: Philip had already conveyed me the video engineer's reply privately, and in more detail, and that was particularly respectful.

    I have amended the text on the webpage where I share my leaders.

    J

    All good Job - I did not mean to seem to have a go at Phillip - I respect his young enquiring mindBig Smile Thank you for explaining, both. Long may countdown leaders thrive!

    MC with Symphony option, 2022.10, HP ZBook 17 G5, i7-8850H 6 core/64GB ram/512 M2 ssd/Nvidia Quadro P5200/16GB/FHD, HP Thunderbolt Dock G2, BMD Ultrastudio... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Sep 7 2022 5:51 PM In reply to

    Re: SMPTE bars and tone leaders - Templates

    any ideas where to find this on a mac?

  • Wed, Sep 7 2022 8:41 PM In reply to

    • luca.mg
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    Re: SMPTE bars and tone leaders - Templates

    JoshuaHalifaxNS:

    any ideas where to find this on a mac?

    Hi, what do You mean by "this", bars and tones?

    Symphony 21.9, BM Intensity Pro 4k, Windows 10, i7-5930K, 32 GB ram, Quadro K620 [view my complete system specs]

    peace luca

  • Sat, Sep 10 2022 3:51 PM In reply to

    Re: SMPTE bars and tone leaders - Templates

    I've always just created my own project called "Project leader" and then made the bin with bars and tone and anything else you want in a sequence, and then made that bin a "favourites" bin...so it shows up in every other project i work in.

    I usually only do 23.976 and 59.94 projects, so i have a favourites bin with each name. (23.98 leader and 59.94 leader)

     

    As for legality...i've had plenty of shows pass external QC houses that used Avid created bars and tone.

    I've also had plenty come back with a fail that used Resolves bars.

    Current Avid-Z390 Win 10 Intel i9 64gig ram Nvidia A5000 MC current level - Win 10 64 Gig Ram [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Sep 10 2022 10:27 PM In reply to

    • Mercer
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    Re: SMPTE bars and tone leaders - Templates

    Glenn Sakatch:
    I've also had plenty come back with a fail that used Resolves bars.

    No programme should fail because of bars. Any proper vectorscope, outboard preferably, should instantly show if those bars are not legal. Is Resolve's internal vectorscope not accurate? I'll have to check for myself. Care must be taken with Avid too, to import them without colour scaling. Bars and tone are a legacy and formality to head up shows these days and I have only ever had a QC note if the production number is wrong.

    MC with Symphony option, 2022.10, HP ZBook 17 G5, i7-8850H 6 core/64GB ram/512 M2 ssd/Nvidia Quadro P5200/16GB/FHD, HP Thunderbolt Dock G2, BMD Ultrastudio... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Sep 11 2022 8:26 AM In reply to

    • luca.mg
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    Re: SMPTE bars and tone leaders - Templates

    Well of You happen to export the file with the wrong settings QC will fail at colour bars. Other than operator error, some file formats are not gamma accurate either. 

    Symphony 21.9, BM Intensity Pro 4k, Windows 10, i7-5930K, 32 GB ram, Quadro K620 [view my complete system specs]

    peace luca

  • Sun, Sep 11 2022 9:56 AM In reply to

    • CinéMatica
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    Re: SMPTE bars and tone leaders - Templates

    Glenn Sakatch:

    I've always just created my own project called "Project leader" and then made the bin with bars and tone and anything else you want in a sequence, and then made that bin a "favourites" bin...so it shows up in every other project i work in.

    That's also what I did many years ago. And now the "Favourites Bin" makes it very easy to access it in every new project.

    [AVID 1] HP Z840 | 2x 18 Core Intel Xeon E5-2699v3 / 2.3GHz 35MB | 128GB PC4-17000P 2133MHz / 8x 16GB DDR4 | NVIDIA Quadro P4000 / 8GB GDDR5 / 4x DP 5K... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Sep 18 2022 3:49 PM In reply to

    Re: SMPTE bars and tone leaders - Templates

    Actually if you look at the Resolve bars, you will see an issue.   Not in front of the computer, but I think their I or Q was incorrect.

     

    And believe me, a QC house will fail a show for bars.  I had to redo bars on 10 episodes and reoutput them for an international distributor.

    Reasonable...no, but it happened.  I don't think anybody even sets up shows to bars anymore.  Many places don't even ask for them.  They want the show to start with a slate.

    Current Avid-Z390 Win 10 Intel i9 64gig ram Nvidia A5000 MC current level - Win 10 64 Gig Ram [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Sep 30 2022 8:41 PM In reply to

    • AlyssaM
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    • Joined on Fri, Sep 30 2022
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    Re: SMPTE bars and tone leaders - Templates

    Avid comes with SMPTE bars and tone. There's a really helpful blog post here that has the info: https://www.tv-ae.com/post/bars-and-tone-avid

     

    As for academy leader, Avid does not provide it. However, if you're working with a dailies house, they usually have a leader they like. You can reach out and ask.

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