Latest post Tue, Jun 22 2021 5:46 PM by Mercer. 26 replies.
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  • Tue, Jun 15 2021 10:24 PM

    Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    Hi,

    I have an extensive animation project set up in YCbCr DCI-P3 Color Space and using the DNxHR codec. As part of my work with an outside vendor, I need to regularly make DNxHD exports. Currently I'm exporting in DNxHR and converting with a third-party tool, as there doesn't seem to be an option to export to DNxHD when my project's Color Space is set to DCI-P3. Am I missing something? Is there way to export DNxHD, or am I limited to DNxHR?

    My project doesn't actually need to be in DCI-P3. It was set up that way, but the necessity didn't materialize. However, I have a huge amount of assets in the project already, and am concerned with switching back to Rec 709. Are there any pros/cons of making this change at this stage, with lots of media in the system? Anything I would need to watch out for?

    Thank you!

    - David

  • Wed, Jun 16 2021 9:38 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    I will answer one question with some certainty and give an educated opinion on the other.

    Depending on project type, exporting as DNx HD or DNx HR may not really matter.

    DNx HD was developed for the original HD standards.  These were a somewhat limited set of project types.  But as it became obvious that the future was going to need an ever increasing variety of project sizes, DNx HR was developed.  So DNx HR can basically accommodate any frame size and frame rate.  See the following for a bit of help.

    https://avid.secure.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/White_Paper/DNxHR-Codec-Bandwidth-Specifications

    The one big limitation is that DNx HR does NOT support interlace.  Only progressive.  So if interlace is not involved, I would not worry about using HR.  Under the hood it is very similar (if not identical).

    Now the P3 issue is one where I am less certain.  I do know that P3 is a larger color space than 709.  Depending on how the source material was created, switching the project from P3 to 709 could either be a non issue or very bad.  And I have not played with project setting to see if there are constraints between color space and codec options.  I do know that there has been more than a few people asking Avid to fully document the new color management tools that have appeared in MC.  Your question is exactly why this information is needed.

    If I needed a 709 deliverable and were being paranoid, I would output the final project as P3 and take it to Resolve and have an experienced colorist convert it for you.  It has the tools for this and is well documented.

    Jef

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  • Thu, Jun 17 2021 6:37 AM In reply to

    • Mercer
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    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    It can very useful going forwards to adopt an ACES workflow for this sort of scenario (if you are on 2021). I'm about to adopt ACES workflows for both Avid and Resolve Studio, even though when I finish it is almost always still SDR rec. 709. My grading monitor is 100% DCI-P3 but is calibrated to rec. 709 currently but the real advantage of ACES is that there are input and output transforms to translate from and to almost anything with accuracy, plus the ability to work in any colourspace and to output in multiple standards as required. At the moment ACES is badly described - it is much simpler than the documentation suggests.

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  • Thu, Jun 17 2021 6:49 AM In reply to

    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    Mercer:
    I'm about to adopt ACES workflows for both Avid and Resolve Studio

    I'd be very interested in how you go about this, please do keep us posted!

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  • Thu, Jun 17 2021 8:13 AM In reply to

    • Mercer
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    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    Job ter Burg:

    I'd be very interested in how you go about this, please do keep us posted!

    Will do Job. I am going to start a major freelance contract as an online editor, later this year. It will be based initially at their facility but I will be doing more of it in my home studio as time goes on. My setup was designed specifically to pick up more of this finishing work. The TV series is, like most UK broadcast HD, SDR and rec. 709 but I am trying to setup a project template for ACES going forward, since I do other work often in 4K. I have been following the documentation from the Academy closely, it is in my view uneccessarily verbose and complex, since when you get down to it ACES is quite straightforward and makes good sense. I am of course talking about online/finishing with a properly calibrated grading monitor but it can make sense across all workflows. ACES is not necessarily about only delivery to Netflix, cinema HDR per se.

    Basically since you are working in an internal edit space of 32bit float and 30 stops of DR at all times, it is enough to accomodate any present or future standards (as long as your hardware has the power) and since almost all camera manufacturers have already supplied IDTs for ACES; together with internal colourspace accurate transforms, it seems the way to go. Here in the UK the almost ubiquitous camera of choice amongst production companies is the Sony FS7, sometimes with S-Log, sometimes not. So ACES seems logical too here.

    However, of course there, will probably be no time and although this is an entertainment show, grading needs are quite minimal. I have some time (but have taken on more editing work beforeHuh?) before this gig to see if the project set up template is practicabable, in this fast paced delivery - probably not - it maybe overkill - and I'll fall back on good old rec.709 HD, since the ultimate deliveries are AS-11s. I'll certainly let you know since I can see this as definitely the futureYes

     

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  • Thu, Jun 17 2021 2:39 PM In reply to

    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    jef:
    But as it became obvious that the future was going to need an ever increasing variety of project sizes, DNx HR was developed.  So DNx HR can basically accommodate any frame size and frame rate.

    Thanks for the information! My project is progressive, so all good there.

    My main problem is that I have a spec from an outside vendor that requires DNxHD, but when Avid is in P3 Color Space it doesn't seem to allow DNxHD exports. So I have to export to DNxHR (essentially a Same As Source, except MXF instead of MOV) and then perform the conversion in an outside application. I was just hoping there was a way to create a DNxHD export, essentially doing the conversion inside Avid, without changing my project's color space.

    Speaking of Color Space, if I do switch my project to Rec. 709, DNxHR vanishes as a codec option, leaving me only with DNxHD. Why are these two codecs mutually exclusive, especially when they are so similar under the hood?

    Thanks, all!

    - David

  • Thu, Jun 17 2021 3:10 PM In reply to

    • Mercer
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    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    dcondolora:
    if I do switch my project to Rec. 709, DNxHR vanishes as a codec option, leaving me only with DNxHD. Why are these two codecs mutually exclusive, especially when they are so similar under the hood?

    In a 4K project your only choices will be DNxHR, since you wish to export specifically in DNxHD at times, you need to change the project format to 1080p. But as your whole project is and started life in the DCI-P3 colourspace, presumably rec. 2020, you need to sure that the translation when doing so, from rec.2020 to rec.709 is accurate. Without the need for an ACES setup project, which I imagine you don't have, Avid allows various output colourspaces to be selected, for source/record monitors and monitor/export - whether the translations are accurate, or not, you'll have to determine by trail and error.

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  • Thu, Jun 17 2021 4:22 PM In reply to

    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    Folks any chance we can ca it UHD if it's UHD.

    It's really not helpful calling stuff 4k when 4k is different to UHD.

    As for working at UHD in Aces for TV deliverables I wonder how that sort of content will sliw down fast turnaround TV content? 

    UHD is 4 or 8 times the size of HD (no interlaced option so 50p may be needed) 

    Storing, moving, rendering and exporting is all going to E dlower. 

    The traditional approach is work at what you need to deliver and if you need greater res or colour space just reconform from the camera originals. 

     

     

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  • Thu, Jun 17 2021 4:33 PM In reply to

    • Mercer
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    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    Pat Horridge:

    Folks any chance we can ca it UHD if it's UHD.

    It's really not helpful calling stuff 4k when 4k is different to UHD.

    It might be 4K DCI Pat, since the OP doesn't say, it could be UHD or 4K, especially since he says it's DCI-P3, which is not necessarily the colourspace for UHD broadcast.

    Pat Horridge:

    As for working at UHD in Aces for TV deliverables I wonder how that sort of content will sliw down fast turnaround TV content? 

    UHD is 4 or 8 times the size of HD (no interlaced option so 50p may be needed) 

    ACES implies no resolution or colourspace - it is designed, indeed its hoped purpose, is to be independent and agnostic. It is quite possible to work with HD material in ACES.

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  • Thu, Jun 17 2021 6:22 PM In reply to

    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    Just to clarify: my project is 1080p24, and is feature animation. While we work with low-resolution proxies (DNxHR LB in our case, at least until we hit the lighting stage), I had hoped to use DCI-P3 because it's part of the film's final delivery spec, and we have P3 displays—my idea was to get increased color fidelity into the editorial suite. Unfortunately, the animation vendor wasn't able to accommodate.

    Mercer:
    In a 4K project your only choices will be DNxHR, since you wish to export specifically in DNxHD at times, you need to change the project format to 1080p.

    Thanks for the suggestion! This is kind of why I'm confused, as my project is already 1080p. But Avid is still not allowing me access to the DNxHD codecs. I wonder if this is because DNxHD doesn't support P3 color? And Avid doesn't want to do the conversion from P3 to Rec. 709 on export?

    Thanks for the continued discussion,

    - David

  • Thu, Jun 17 2021 6:47 PM In reply to

    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    I was working from the line in the post "The TV series is, like most UK broadcast HD, SDR and rec. 709"

     

    But ACES is far from ideal currently. I don't know any systems that fully support it as intended. 

    Yes you can work with HD in ACES but of course you don't as ypu would bring in the camera originals at whatever colour space they are and transform then back into linear within ACES. 

    If all your camera sources are HD Rec709 then ACES serves no purpose but to inflate files sizes.

    But back to the OP no I can't see anyway to export as a DCI-P3

     

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    Mainly delivered remotely via zoom but onsite possible.

     

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  • Thu, Jun 17 2021 7:20 PM In reply to

    • Mercer
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    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    Pat Horridge:
    Yes you can work with HD in ACES but of course you don't as ypu would bring in the camera originals at whatever colour space they are and transform then back into linear within ACES. 

    You keep confusing ACES with a particular colourspace. Resolve Studio is working right now with ACES and so is Avid mostly. OK, I should say it's highly unlikely I will be using it on this job nor realistic I'll warrant, but we will have to start looking at it in the future and that is what I'm doing - to see how cumbersome it would be if you set up a workflow with it. Netfilx deliverables, for instance, include both a UHD and HD version and both PQ P3/D65/ST.2084 HDR and rec. 709/BT.1886 SDR for each version and the whole point is to prevent reinventing the wheel each time with your IMF. UK terrestial broadcast and AS-11s is only one way to skin the cat. I'm sorry if I irritated you but this is not my first online rodeoWink

    David, I'm unsure what your trying to achieve: Is it that you have this project in DCI-P3 and you're trying to export DNxHD with a P3 colourspace? Or is that you are trying to export a DNxHD rec.709 version? I think the former is impossible since DNxHD only works in rec.709 within Avid but I may be misunderstanding you?

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  • Thu, Jun 17 2021 8:29 PM In reply to

    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    Mercer:
    Is it that you have this project in DCI-P3 and you're trying to export DNxHD with a P3 colourspace? Or is that you are trying to export a DNxHD rec.709 version?

    The latter: trying to export DNxHD Rec. 709 version.

    I'd been trying to do an MXF export this whole time, but it turns out that I can do an MOV export using DNxHD codecs. It even allows me to choose the color space—however, there's a green cast to the image; I probably need to apply a LUT before export.

    So far, that's the best I've been able to do. I'm still considering switching the project to Rec. 709, but am a bit wary of what unforseen consequences there may be—with the huge amount of media we have, it's fraught with peril.

    Thanks,

    - David

  • Thu, Jun 17 2021 8:48 PM In reply to

    • Mercer
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    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    Right I see. Your only option then is to switch the project temporarily to rec. 709. But if you haven't graded for rec.709 then your results can be unexpected, since it doesn't automatically follow that the translation is going to be correct. Or if it's a huge amount of material and you wish to export the rushes in this format, you're going to have to create some kind of translation lut. Why did you choose P3 for a HD project? Or perhaps it wasn't your choice? You really need a seperate grade pass (or lut) for rec. 709, once you have switched projects, ideally with a calibrated monitor of some kind. DCI-P3 is really a cinema colourspace for when your going to DCI-4K DCP or UHD HDR for streaming. For SDR HD it's unusual. I am certain you will not have a green cast at least by switching projects. This is why I mentioned ACES because this precisely what it aims to achieve.

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  • Thu, Jun 17 2021 11:48 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    dcondolora:

    I had hoped to use DCI-P3 because it's part of the film's final delivery spec, and we have P3 displays—my idea was to get increased color fidelity into the editorial suite. Unfortunately, the animation vendor wasn't able to accommodate.

    Ok, so if the animation vendor could not provide P3, what DID they provide?

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." 2023.3.1 iMac w Big Sur and 2018.12.7 on Windows 10 Boot Camp [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

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