Latest post Wed, May 5 2021 5:14 AM by newyankee. 13 replies.
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  • Tue, Mar 23 2021 5:34 AM

    Seeking DIY Win 10 Pro dual-boot advice....

    I have a XPS Workstation with a small, speedy 250GB NvMe C:Drive that has worked perfectly for almost 4 years. It just gets a little full at times, but it’s never failed me.

    I also installed an after-market PCI-e x4 slot add-on NvMe card that allows me 500 GB. It’s working reliably for MC MXF playback.

    If I wanted to have the possibility of booting up with the PCIe slot’s NvMe chip, is that even possible? I wouldn’t need to do it everyday, so I would be willing to go into Bios at startup, if necessary, to direct the PC to choose booting off the PCIe Drive, rather than the C:/ Drive. I *think* that can be done... but then again, I really have no idea.

    Am I barking up the wrong tree? What are the drawbacks? I would license a separate copy of Win 10 Pro, if need be.what I have now is the OEM Win10 that came with the workstation.

    I Don’t want to risk losing the reliability that I now have. I imagine there are all sorts of gotchas, but it would be nice to have a semi-automatic dual-boot capability to also run latest MC versions and keep up with all the latest MC offerings.

    My usual version is v2018.12, which is doing well on my system.

    Is anyone doing something like this with Win 10 Pro? Advice gladly accepted!

    Squeeze v11 EOL-Pro Sony BM2100 Telecine with variable speed controller Casio VL-Tone, CZ-101, LCD watch AJA i/o Express with Express Card Slot Ignite... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Mar 23 2021 8:13 AM In reply to

    Re: Seeking DIY Win 10 Pro dual-boot advice....

    You'd have to look at the motherboards capabilities. I know on the HP Z machines there are limits on what NVMe storages you can boot from. SO I suspect you may find similar limitations.

    In the Bios it would need to give you the option to select that alternate boot location.

     

    ACI Moderator. I'm not employed by Avid or work for them. I just do this in my spare time. Normally using the current Media Composer version on My... [view my complete system specs]

     

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  • Tue, Mar 23 2021 8:55 AM In reply to

    Re: Seeking DIY Win 10 Pro dual-boot advice....

    Thanks for the caution signal, Pat. I’ll try to find the answer to that before getting my hopes up.

    As an alternative, I was thinking I could instead install a Sata SSD to one of the 3 available internal SATA connections.

    If I am able to Clone the C: Drive, using a Samsung utility, I don’t imagine I would harm the original  C:/ Drive in the process... any thoughts on that? I suspect I could disconnect the cloned SSD if BIOS refused to offer a choice at power-up or boot normally to the Original C:/ with a clone attached.

    sonething is telling me that a clean install of the manufacturers OEM Win 10 Pro might not fly either, But perhaps a separate Full Win 10 Pro OS would?

    I don’t have any experience with Win 10 Pro installs, or OEM restrictions, but somehow back in the Win 7 era, I managed to set up a dual-boot option on my MC workstation. I believe things changed a lot since then.

    Squeeze v11 EOL-Pro Sony BM2100 Telecine with variable speed controller Casio VL-Tone, CZ-101, LCD watch AJA i/o Express with Express Card Slot Ignite... [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Apr 8 2021 4:25 AM In reply to

    • newyankee
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    Re: Seeking DIY Win 10 Pro dual-boot advice....

    For years I have multi booted Windows PC's by physically swaping the OS Sata SSD drives.

    This is my method, which I don't think works on NVme drives.

    1) Install the OS on a Sata SSD, or use the existing OS.

    2) Open the "Backup and Restore" pannel in the windows control pannel

    3) "Create System Image" for the OS drive to another Sata SSD in the computer.

    4) Also "create a system repair disk"

    5) Replace the OS drive with a new fresh drive of the same size. Remove all Sata drives except the one with the image. NVme drives are not detected at this point, so they can stay installed.

    6) boot to the system repair disk, and restore the system image to the fresh drive.

    Now you have two drives that boot to windows, and they can be independant from now on.

    FYI, I use Microsoft's cloning method above because the new drive always boots without any complaints.

     

     

    Asus P9x79Pro MB, Intel I7 3930K overclocked to 4GHz, Quadro FX3800, MC 8.3.1 /Symphony, Raid 0 / 3ware controller, Win 7 Pro 64, 32 Gig Ram, Matrox MX02... [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Apr 8 2021 8:23 AM In reply to

    Re: Seeking DIY Win 10 Pro dual-boot advice....

    Dealing with Nvme drives is somewhat more complicated as they don't use SATA connections so physically swopping them isn't really viable.

    I'd also urge caution once you start changing boot drives round you can blow away the ability to boot at all. So cloning the C drive and copying it to another drive to experiment changing the boot order may leave you with a broken system.

    Makes sure you have an external bootable repair image and make sure you have an external clone of the current boot drive.

    ACI Moderator. I'm not employed by Avid or work for them. I just do this in my spare time. Normally using the current Media Composer version on My... [view my complete system specs]

     

    Broadcast & Post Production Consultant / Trainer  Avid Certified Instructor VET

     

    QC/QAR Training - Understanding Digital Media - Advanced Files * Compression - Avid Ingest - PSE fixing courses and more

    All bespoke and delivered onsite at yours. Or delivered via hosted Zoom session.

     

    T 07581 201248 | E pat@vet-training.co.uk | W www.vet-training.co.uk |

     

  • Thu, Apr 8 2021 11:13 PM In reply to

    • newyankee
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    Re: Seeking DIY Win 10 Pro dual-boot advice....

    Pat Horridge:

    Dealing with Nvme drives is somewhat more complicated as they don't use SATA connections so physically swopping them isn't really viable.

    I'd also urge caution once you start changing boot drives round you can blow away the ability to boot at all. So cloning the C drive and copying it to another drive to experiment changing the boot order may leave you with a broken system.

    Makes sure you have an external bootable repair image and make sure you have an external clone of the current boot drive.

    Pat has some good points, and I should clarify some details.

    1) I 100% agree with Pat about not using nvme drives in any physical swapping approach.

    2) PC bioses have some way of remembering which physical Sata port to look for a boot disk, (or search order). Most of my computers don't care if I swap boot SSD's on the same port, but... some do. It is possible for some bioses to require help in selecting the correct boot drive after each swap. This means opening the bios at boot time and selecting the correct drive, and then continuing the boot. The computer will be happy until the next swap.

    3) Just to be clear, only attach one boot ssd at a time. Alternate boot ssd's should be on a shelf.

    4) I have been using the physical multi boot approach since early Win 7 days. Originally, I used Norton ghost to clone boot drives. Norton correctly cloned the drives, but they never booted without using a Microsoft "repair" disk to correctly bless the new drive so it would boot. I now use the internal Microsoft cloning system to avoid any problems.

    5) Cloning an "activated" OS passes the activation status to all new copies.

    6) It is a good idea to make the Microsoft "restore" DVD on the same computer it will be used in, along with the drive image process.

    I have 8 systems configured for physical multi boot, and about 50 OS ssd's on a shelf. The computers have hardware that allows inserting ssd's from the front of the case. There has never been a problem swaping an OS other than adjusting the bios boot pointer (required in one of my 8 systems). FYI, my primary Avid system has no permanent drives, only front pannel access for 2 ssd's and 5 spinning drives, which can be reconfigured on a project basis.

    Some reassons for spare clone drives:

    a) Keep a version cloned right after a clean and activated install. Makes it easy to branch off and configure a system with new requirements.

    b) Once a system is up and running perfectly, make a clone as a backup, safely sitting on a shelf. Just think of how many problems reached this forum related to failures after an upgrade. It is like having a reliable physical restore point, returning to a functing system in minuites. Naturally, I don't clone drives frequently, but I do make microsoft OS drive images to a reliable data drive or network storage before making substancial changes to any system.

    c) Multiple OS drives make it possible for one system to serve different requirments. Production systems can be run without an internet conection and no antivirus, and other circumstances may require internet connections.

     

     

    Asus P9x79Pro MB, Intel I7 3930K overclocked to 4GHz, Quadro FX3800, MC 8.3.1 /Symphony, Raid 0 / 3ware controller, Win 7 Pro 64, 32 Gig Ram, Matrox MX02... [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Apr 9 2021 9:28 AM In reply to

    Re: Seeking DIY Win 10 Pro dual-boot advice....

    Thank you New Yankee and Pat for adding responses, ideas, and important cautions. This topic truly hurts my head, but I am still hoping to someday learn how to “multi boot”, and make use of the kind of safety back-ups described. That’s the dream and I did enjoy that in Win 7 days on an easier system of spinning drives. 

    In my case, the path forward seems not so clear, as I really need to avoid any voluntary no-boot disaster... and keep editing on the system, as is.

    I am reading your notes carefully and making my own, reading up on particular issues on my pc, which I’ll post at some point here.

    Basic problem has to do with my inexperience in Windows 10 restrictions and BIOS settings (Raid= ON is the current original configuration) which casts some doubt on whether an NvME C:/ Drive “migration” of any kind, onto an easier-to-access internal Sata SSD, would work without a hitch... if a drive image is made with C:/ Drive in a RAID = ON State.

    Whatever I do, I want to avoid the avoidable mistakes or incorrect assumptions. Appreciate your help.

    Btw, My Win 10 Pro’s ability to create a Drive Image stopped working at some point... I will try it again.

    THANK YOU.

    Squeeze v11 EOL-Pro Sony BM2100 Telecine with variable speed controller Casio VL-Tone, CZ-101, LCD watch AJA i/o Express with Express Card Slot Ignite... [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Apr 9 2021 11:38 PM In reply to

    • newyankee
    • Top 500 Contributor
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    Re: Seeking DIY Win 10 Pro dual-boot advice....

    Telegram!:

    Thank you New Yankee and Pat for adding responses, ideas, and important cautions. This topic truly hurts my head, but I am still hoping to someday learn how to “multi boot”, and make use of the kind of safety back-ups described. That’s the dream and I did enjoy that in Win 7 days on an easier system of spinning drives. 

    In my case, the path forward seems not so clear, as I really need to avoid any voluntary no-boot disaster... and keep editing on the system, as is.

    I am reading your notes carefully and making my own, reading up on particular issues on my pc, which I’ll post at some point here.

    Basic problem has to do with my inexperience in Windows 10 restrictions and BIOS settings (Raid= ON is the current original configuration) which casts some doubt on whether an NvME C:/ Drive “migration” of any kind, onto an easier-to-access internal Sata SSD, would work without a hitch... if a drive image is made with C:/ Drive in a RAID = ON State.

    Whatever I do, I want to avoid the avoidable mistakes or incorrect assumptions. Appreciate your help.

    Btw, My Win 10 Pro’s ability to create a Drive Image stopped working at some point... I will try it again.

    THANK YOU.

    Unfortunately, as technology advances, some old solutions no longer function. The Win 7 to Win 10 transition fortunately did not prohibit physical multi boot options, but the Sata to Nvme transition did.


    I tried to provide generic Sata based information for you and future readers, but I am afraid any multi boot options involving a Nvme drive is beyond my experience level.


    I’ll provide step by step info of what I would do if I had to reconfigure your system, however, it is more aimed at “are you sure you want to” rather than “how to”.


    1)    Get to know your computer bios. Boot to your bios, read the manual if you have one, and become comfortable with how it selects the boot drive. I would take photos of all the screen configuration information so that you could manually reset it. If the bios seems like foreign territory, abort the project now.
    2)    Prepare a plan to remove (disconnect) all drives from the system, install a fresh Sata SSD, and prepare a Win 10 install USB drive. Now call tech support of your computer vendor and review your plan together. If they cannot predict success and a path to Win 10 activation, abort the plan now. They may provide other helpful hints.
    3)    Back up any data you want to keep from your Nvme C drive, and take notes of all the applications you need to reinstall, (deactivate Avid if there is no dongle).
    4)    Now pull your drives and do a fresh Win10 install. Reconnect you data drives, and make an image of your new Sata OS disk. (Suggest not reinstalling the Nvme).
    5)    Now spend the next month sorting out all the applications that you need to reinstall. FYI, whenever I install any software, I take extensive notes just for such occasions.
    6)    In case of “difficulty”, it is theoretically possible to remove the new Sata OS drive and reinstall the Nvme, however your command of the bios configuration will be critical to success.


    The best way to get to your end goal is to wait till you need a new system, and order one with a Sata boot drive. Given the influence of core memory and the GPU to video editing, I don’t think speed of the OS drive is critical. Nvme drives are great for media and cache applications, but tricky for boot functions. Also, configuring a new clean Win 10 install is best when the old production system is still in service.
    Good luck

    Asus P9x79Pro MB, Intel I7 3930K overclocked to 4GHz, Quadro FX3800, MC 8.3.1 /Symphony, Raid 0 / 3ware controller, Win 7 Pro 64, 32 Gig Ram, Matrox MX02... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Apr 11 2021 9:49 AM In reply to

    Re: Seeking DIY Win 10 Pro dual-boot advice....

    Thanks again to you both for continuing to add to this with your informed opinions...it is very helpful. I took a tour of my Bios and also read that there’s a way to properly set up Bios for an SSD if it’s going to be used as a C:/ Drive. My PC has several Sata expansion ports and the PC was bought pre-configured with BIOS = RAID On, which I’m not taking advantage of....as opposed to AHCI. 

    I think for SSDs on Sata, AHCI May be required or is suggested...and I am wondering if I need to make that change before attempting a clone from my NVMe C:/ Drive...? 

    In any event, I found this link below and wondered if you guys have any thoughts on the directions shown...sometimes things are simplified... it is describing a way to make that Bios change without a re-install of Windows 10.... but how can that go wrong? 

    https://www.top-password.com/blog/switch-from-raid-to-ahci-without-reinstalling-windows/

    Re: Clean installs: I admire your diligence in keeping track of all your app installations..but I don’t presently have a way to do that, unless I can get a dual-boot / multi-boot capability running first. If I had to, I would buy a second Win 10 license, but prefer not to. I got a new 1TB Samsung SSD and I have an interest in at least trying to install it in the PC chassis and receive a Clone of my NVMe C:/ Drive. I believe that is possible using Samsung migration software, as long as the clone lands on a Samsung brand SSD. If I were to be successful in making a clone, I just don’t know if I can let them both co-exist ... I I keep both C:/ drives attached (orig and clone) and then power-up, will Bios flip out ? or does it just boot from the first available drive in its priority list? 

    This is where all those cautions above keep me from proceeding or tinkering. I can wait until I have a better sense of what I’m in for. If I can only boot from one at a time by changing the Bios boot priority list, that would be an acceptable inconvenience.

    Squeeze v11 EOL-Pro Sony BM2100 Telecine with variable speed controller Casio VL-Tone, CZ-101, LCD watch AJA i/o Express with Express Card Slot Ignite... [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Apr 12 2021 5:54 AM In reply to

    • newyankee
    • Top 500 Contributor
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    Re: Seeking DIY Win 10 Pro dual-boot advice....

    Telegram!:

    Thanks again to you both for continuing to add to this with your informed opinions...it is very helpful. I took a tour of my Bios and also read that there’s a way to properly set up Bios for an SSD if it’s going to be used as a C:/ Drive. My PC has several Sata expansion ports and the PC was bought pre-configured with BIOS = RAID On, which I’m not taking advantage of....as opposed to AHCI. 

    I think for SSDs on Sata, AHCI May be required or is suggested...and I am wondering if I need to make that change before attempting a clone from my NVMe C:/ Drive...? 

    In any event, I found this link below and wondered if you guys have any thoughts on the directions shown...sometimes things are simplified... it is describing a way to make that Bios change without a re-install of Windows 10.... but how can that go wrong? 

    https://www.top-password.com/blog/switch-from-raid-to-ahci-without-reinstalling-windows/

    Re: Clean installs: I admire your diligence in keeping track of all your app installations..but I don’t presently have a way to do that, unless I can get a dual-boot / multi-boot capability running first. If I had to, I would buy a second Win 10 license, but prefer not to. I got a new 1TB Samsung SSD and I have an interest in at least trying to install it in the PC chassis and receive a Clone of my NVMe C:/ Drive. I believe that is possible using Samsung migration software, as long as the clone lands on a Samsung brand SSD. If I were to be successful in making a clone, I just don’t know if I can let them both co-exist ... I I keep both C:/ drives attached (orig and clone) and then power-up, will Bios flip out ? or does it just boot from the first available drive in its priority list? 

    This is where all those cautions above keep me from proceeding or tinkering. I can wait until I have a better sense of what I’m in for. If I can only boot from one at a time by changing the Bios boot priority list, that would be an acceptable inconvenience.

    I can positively confirm that your bios needs to be in AHCI mode for your goal to boot to a Sata drive.  But beware, the folllowing advice is just opinion or guesswork.

    Your link about the raid to achi transition seems reasonable. I have never needed to do anything similar, but I would probably follow their proedure if I were doing the swap.

    Fun facts and guesswork about OS drives and cloneing:

    If you think of your OS drive as just a complete file structure containing win 10, your applications, life history, etc, ...cloning to another drive seems simple, except that there are "also" hidden files critical for the boot process. I have no idea if the nvme hidden boot files are different from the sata boot files.

    Again, I have no experience with the Samsung "transition" software, but one can hope that it knows how to manage the hidden boot files and set up the boot loader correctly.

    There is a good chance that you could 1) install the fresh Sansung SSD, 2) run the Samsung transitiion software, 3) do the raid to ahci swap process and 4) end up booting your old system from the sata drive, ... but much depends on the Samsung software, microsoft, and the phase of the moon.

    I do know that during the early ahci boot process, the motherboard does not see the nvme drive, but I still caution not to have two os drives in the same system. I tried that years ago, and after one drive booted, the system destroyed the hidden boot files on the other drive. I don't know if that is still the case with Win 10.

    Also sugest removing all other data drives during the first boot, to make problem solving easier.

    You have come a long way peparing for this adventure, but I conclude with strong advice to do the most tedious and disgusting task possible, ... call tech support at your computer vendor and also Samsung. You may or may not get more helpful info, but it is worth the wasted time on hold.

    If you are in the US, PM me and I'll provide another phone support option.





     

    Asus P9x79Pro MB, Intel I7 3930K overclocked to 4GHz, Quadro FX3800, MC 8.3.1 /Symphony, Raid 0 / 3ware controller, Win 7 Pro 64, 32 Gig Ram, Matrox MX02... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Apr 21 2021 4:09 AM In reply to

    Re: Seeking DIY Win 10 Pro dual-boot advice....

    Thanks for the offer, yankee. I may take you up that sometime. I am glad I didn’t just jump in to try flipping Bios Sata setting from Raid = ON to AHCI = ON. Seems there were reports of  instances where blue screen arrived while attempting to make the switch in Bios Setting from within Safe Mode... see this video:

    https://youtu.be/w_LnM0JvhHc

    Squeeze v11 EOL-Pro Sony BM2100 Telecine with variable speed controller Casio VL-Tone, CZ-101, LCD watch AJA i/o Express with Express Card Slot Ignite... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, May 4 2021 3:43 AM In reply to

    • newyankee
    • Top 500 Contributor
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    Re: Seeking DIY Win 10 Pro dual-boot advice....

    I just saw a review of a system that offers the ability to swap Nvme drives:

    https://pcper.com/2021/04/icy-dock-tougharmor-mb834m2k-b-review/

    I have no experience with Nvme swaping, but it may be an interesting alternative.

     

    Asus P9x79Pro MB, Intel I7 3930K overclocked to 4GHz, Quadro FX3800, MC 8.3.1 /Symphony, Raid 0 / 3ware controller, Win 7 Pro 64, 32 Gig Ram, Matrox MX02... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, May 4 2021 10:47 AM In reply to

    Re: Seeking DIY Win 10 Pro dual-boot advice....

    Hi newyankee. Thanks very much for that article, it is a bullseye, I’d say.

    I had seen an NVMe extension cable that ended with a single NVMe holder on Amazon and was imagining using it to do exactly what that ICY dock permits: avoiding removal my graphics card more than once. This takes is a step further, by safely securing the NVMe inside the chassis for swappable access. 

    I may have to contact ICY and ask about how their Dual version is designed. For me, a mechanical A/B switch would do the trick, (shutting off the PC of course). If I understand it correctly, Their unit uses an extension cable from the motherboard’s NVMe connector to their 3.5 bay-removable unit. Then it would be up to me to pick an affordable NVMe hardware cloner (that can clone boot OS) and keep from breaking them. Maybe ICY can explain if their dual NVMe version is a splitter and if they tested it on my particular PC/motherboard... and BIOS. 

    They refer to U.2. I confess I don’t know if the physical connection on the motherboard used for my C// Drive NVMe is cinsidered that or something else. 

    i was contemplatibg doing a dual SSD 2.5 version of basically the same idea, but I got super cautious about the apparent need to switch BIOS to AHCI from RAID (even though it is apparently possible but you don’t usually see YouTube videos on DIY disasters)

    So I hope the ICY would allow keeping BIOS set to RAUD and the next question is whether BIOS can handle two bootable NVMes connected (both siblings from the same OEM Windows 10 install). Hmmm.  That seems unlikely to work. Perhaps all I really need is the single NVMe ICY and be grateful for the ease of access.

    I have had time to mull this DIY project over, but me and my system got too busy to actually proceed. It’s very promising. Again, THANK YOU.

    Squeeze v11 EOL-Pro Sony BM2100 Telecine with variable speed controller Casio VL-Tone, CZ-101, LCD watch AJA i/o Express with Express Card Slot Ignite... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, May 5 2021 5:14 AM In reply to

    • newyankee
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Sun, Sep 16 2007
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    • Posts 216
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    Re: Seeking DIY Win 10 Pro dual-boot advice....

    I have had all good results with the ICY gear I used, but I still caution to only have one "bootable' drive in a system at one time. Suggest turning off the system and physically swaping the drives. Indeed, it may be possible to have two bootable drives in one system, just outside my experience. Good luck.

    Asus P9x79Pro MB, Intel I7 3930K overclocked to 4GHz, Quadro FX3800, MC 8.3.1 /Symphony, Raid 0 / 3ware controller, Win 7 Pro 64, 32 Gig Ram, Matrox MX02... [view my complete system specs]
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