Latest post Tue, Mar 23 2021 12:44 AM by Lukas Boeck. 18 replies.
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  • Sat, Mar 20 2021 4:38 PM

    • Pulck
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    Internal media drive questions - SSD or HDD / SMR vs CMR

    I've got an upcoming project and need about 2-4TB of storage space on my home setup.

    Up till now, I've been using whatever USB3 external drives production companies send me, but they drive me a bit crazy when they go to sleep each time I stop editing for 5-10 minutes. Also, I suspect USB3 is a bit of a bottleneck for system speed.

    So I'm now thinking of putting a couple of internal hard drives in my system and copying the media over each time.

    Is there any advantage to using SSDs for media drives? I'm generally only offlining at DNxHD36, but as I said any improvement in system responsiveness would make me happy.

    And if I stick to old-fashioned HDDs, is the rule of thumb that I should be sticking to CMR/7200rpm drives?

    Are there any brands/models that professional editors favour?

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  • Sat, Mar 20 2021 4:53 PM In reply to

    Re: Internal media drive questions - SSD or HDD / SMR vs CMR

    It would certainly be a lot cheaper to buy 1 or 2 HDD's rather than ssds.  At 7200 (which is all I would ever buy) and dnx36, I dont think you would have any issues.

    As for brand, you will always find someone who hates seagate because it died on them, and someone else who loves them, cause they never die.  Same for pretty much any brand out their.  If you can afford enterprise drives instead, that would be the way to go.  As long as you are looking for 7200's, that should filter out a lot of th cheaper drives any way.

    In my experience, drives will either fail rather quickly, or last a long time.  I alway buy a warrenty if available, and have used them on a few occasions.

    For what it it worth, my Qnaps house 24 HGST drives, which have been going strong for about 3 or 4 years now. One drive bugged out after about a month, and was replaced by manufacturer.

    I always have a spare for each Qnap sittting on hand incase i need to do a swap out.

    In your situation, it sounds like you would have an external backup anyway, so should be fairly stress free way to work.

    Current Avid-Z390 Win 10 Intel i9 64gig ram Radeon VII MC current level - Win 10 64 Gig Ram [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Mar 20 2021 5:16 PM In reply to

    • Pulck
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    Re: Internal media drive questions - SSD or HDD / SMR vs CMR

    Glenn Sakatch:

    It would certainly be a lot cheaper to buy 1 or 2 HDD's rather than ssds.  At 7200 (which is all I would ever buy) and dnx36, I dont think you would have any issues.

    As for brand, you will always find someone who hates seagate because it died on them, and someone else who loves them, cause they never die.  Same for pretty much any brand out their.  If you can afford enterprise drives instead, that would be the way to go.  As long as you are looking for 7200's, that should filter out a lot of th cheaper drives any way.

    Thanks. I'm not so worried by their failing - like you say, I'll have backups available - as how responsive they'll be when editing. (Although, I'm guessing SSDs are more reliable long-term due to lack of moving parts, right?)

    Just for comparison I looked around online: £150 would buy me either a 4TB enterprise-level HD (e.g. WD Gold) or 2TB SSD, so the price gap is not as big as I'd originally thought.

  • Sat, Mar 20 2021 5:41 PM In reply to

    Re: Internal media drive questions - SSD or HDD / SMR vs CMR

    Well your price comparison can be taken both ways.  You are paying for half the storage as well.  See what a 4tb SSD is in comparison. :)

     

    As for SSD longevity...that is another debate.  They do have a finite number of read and write cycles on them.  Whether you will ever hit that cycle or not is up for debate.  I use an SSD as my boot drive, but I still use spinning drives for everything else.  Too old school I guess.  You will get errors with spinning drives usually) before they die, but I think SSDs will just stop working at some point, although my OS drive has been going great for years now...but it isn't really under any huge read write usage either.  

    I've got spinning drives that are around 10 years old on a Promise Raid, and never had an issue under some pretty heavy use.

    (again, they would be enterprise drives)

    So I would say it all comes down to luck and opinion...don't think there is a correct answer.

    Current Avid-Z390 Win 10 Intel i9 64gig ram Radeon VII MC current level - Win 10 64 Gig Ram [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Mar 20 2021 6:39 PM In reply to

    • Lukas Boeck
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    Re: Internal media drive questions - SSD or HDD / SMR vs CMR

    Glenn Sakatch:

     If you can afford enterprise drives instead, that would be the way to go.

    And then you'll find folk who'll say they lost a raid-6 array b/c 3 out of their 8 enterprise class drives died in a week Big Smile
    but yeah,  EC drives are better, yes brand, doesn't matter, yes on the cmr.


    I'd say, buy ssd if you can afford it, way more responsive.
    HDD is fun in arrays of 4 drives or more.

    And yes, the way SSDs fail is different from HDD.
    With HDD you're approx 75% likely to see warning signs.
    SSDs will die less often but suddenly and no recovery software in the world can do anything.

    Write endurance isn't an issue with SSDs with our use case, even cheap ones have 600 full writes.
    One issue is that many SSDs have a fast cache and perfect benchmarks,
    but if you write large files, speeds fall off a cliff, so a bit of research is needed.

    MC 2018.12.2 Cusom bulid Supermicro X9SRL-F, 32 Gig Ram, 3ware 9750 6x6TB Seagate EC Drives, LSI 9207 + LTO-7, Mojo DX, Artist Color, Flanders CM240, GTX... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Mar 21 2021 12:26 PM In reply to

    • Pulck
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    Re: Internal media drive questions - SSD or HDD / SMR vs CMR

    Lukas Boeck:

    I'd say, buy ssd if you can afford it, way more responsive.

    HDD is fun in arrays of 4 drives or more.

    And yes, the way SSDs fail is different from HDD.
    With HDD you're approx 75% likely to see warning signs.
    SSDs will die less often but suddenly and no recovery software in the world can do anything.

    Write endurance isn't an issue with SSDs with our use case, even cheap ones have 600 full writes.
    One issue is that many SSDs have a fast cache and perfect benchmarks,
    but if you write large files, speeds fall off a cliff, so a bit of research is needed.

    Thanks. Given that I'm talking about relatively small storage amounts (2-4TB) I think I'll give SSDs a go. A drive failure wouldn't be catastrophic because the media is always going to be available to rebuild.

    I'll look into the large file write speed issue you mentioned.

  • Sun, Mar 21 2021 5:20 PM In reply to

    • Lukas Boeck
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    Re: Internal media drive questions - SSD or HDD / SMR vs CMR

    Glad to help, one more sidenote:

    M2 SSDs are what everybody has now & they are great.
    If one needs to expand later to a pool of several drives,
    the more professional U2, U3 standards should be preferred.
    Disks cost the same, but this needs an extra 400€/$ controller.

    MC 2018.12.2 Cusom bulid Supermicro X9SRL-F, 32 Gig Ram, 3ware 9750 6x6TB Seagate EC Drives, LSI 9207 + LTO-7, Mojo DX, Artist Color, Flanders CM240, GTX... [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Mar 22 2021 9:35 AM In reply to

    • Pulck
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    Re: Internal media drive questions - SSD or HDD / SMR vs CMR

    Lukas Boeck:

    Glad to help, one more sidenote:

    M2 SSDs are what everybody has now & they are great.
    If one needs to expand later to a pool of several drives,
    the more professional U2, U3 standards should be preferred.
    Disks cost the same, but this needs an extra 400€/$ controller.

    I'm using an M2 for my boot disk but they work out too costly for media storage, at least for my pocket. SATA SSD drives are looking pretty reasonable at the moment, though, and the speeds are still significantly better than spinning HDDs.

  • Mon, Mar 22 2021 12:43 PM In reply to

    • Lukas Boeck
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    Re: Internal media drive questions - SSD or HDD / SMR vs CMR

    Well, the latest M2 drives are faster than sata by a factor of 14.
    And the sata drives you're looking at are likely the same uderprovisioned QLC/TLC drives where the speeds fall off a cliff.
    I've seen drives rated for 500MB/s bottom out at 40MB/s. It's not fun.



    MC 2018.12.2 Cusom bulid Supermicro X9SRL-F, 32 Gig Ram, 3ware 9750 6x6TB Seagate EC Drives, LSI 9207 + LTO-7, Mojo DX, Artist Color, Flanders CM240, GTX... [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Mar 22 2021 12:53 PM In reply to

    • Pulck
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    Re: Internal media drive questions - SSD or HDD / SMR vs CMR

    Lukas Boeck:

    Well, the latest M2 drives are faster than sata by a factor of 14.
    And the sata drives you're looking at are likely the same uderprovisioned QLC/TLC drives where the speeds fall off a cliff.
    I've seen drives rated for 500MB/s bottom out at 40MB/s. It's not fun.

    OK, so if I understand you correctly, you're saying it's not worth going for SSDs unless they're M2? In other words, SATA SSDs are a waste of time? (Sorry if I misunderstood your earlier message.)

    I think my mobo has only 1 NVME port, so I'd have to add another controller. As always, the costs start to mount...!

  • Mon, Mar 22 2021 2:49 PM In reply to

    • Lukas Boeck
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    Re: Internal media drive questions - SSD or HDD / SMR vs CMR

    I can tell you that I would develop a bellyache if I payed 30% less for reads that peak at 8% of the newer drives.
    I don't think you'll need a new controller, buy a big M.2 SSD and make a 256GB system partition on it.

    The upside of 7GB/s reads: doesn't matter if you split that between system and data Big Smile

    MC 2018.12.2 Cusom bulid Supermicro X9SRL-F, 32 Gig Ram, 3ware 9750 6x6TB Seagate EC Drives, LSI 9207 + LTO-7, Mojo DX, Artist Color, Flanders CM240, GTX... [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Mar 22 2021 2:55 PM In reply to

    • Pulck
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    Re: Internal media drive questions - SSD or HDD / SMR vs CMR

    Lukas Boeck:

    I can tell you that I would develop a bellyache if I payed 30% less for reads that peak at 8% of the newer drives.
    I don't think you'll need a new controller, buy a big M.2 SSD and make a 256GB system partition on it.

    The upside of 7GB/s reads: doesn't matter if you split that between system and data Big Smile

    Haha! OK, point taken.

    I suppose I'll just make sure my boot partition is backed up regularly. I wouldn't want to lose both media and OS in one go.

  • Mon, Mar 22 2021 3:06 PM In reply to

    • Lukas Boeck
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    Re: Internal media drive questions - SSD or HDD / SMR vs CMR

    and now you made a good point about backups.
    If you have pci-e slots available, you can put another M.2 on one of those with a 20$ adapter.
    M2 is the same protocol as pci-e, so adapters are cheap and don't need to be particulary good.

    MC 2018.12.2 Cusom bulid Supermicro X9SRL-F, 32 Gig Ram, 3ware 9750 6x6TB Seagate EC Drives, LSI 9207 + LTO-7, Mojo DX, Artist Color, Flanders CM240, GTX... [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Mar 22 2021 3:18 PM In reply to

    • Pulck
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    Re: Internal media drive questions - SSD or HDD / SMR vs CMR

    Lukas Boeck:

    and now you made a good point about backups.
    If you have pci-e slots available, you can put another M.2 on one of those with a 20$ adapter.
    M2 is the same protocol as pci-e, so adapters are cheap and don't need to be particulary good.

    Hmmm, just realised I have no other PCI slots available (mini-ATX mobo).

    I could put boot/OS on SATA SSD, though, and media on NVME. Is there much to be lost from software running on SATA, other than slower boot speed?

  • Mon, Mar 22 2021 4:39 PM In reply to

    • Lukas Boeck
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    Re: Internal media drive questions - SSD or HDD / SMR vs CMR

    you can absolutely. And you won't even see longer boot times from a slower sata SSD IRL.
    I'd say we're in a toss up between bigger, partitioned M2 and m2 + sata combo.
    If one can't make up one's mind - then either way is usually fine.

    MC 2018.12.2 Cusom bulid Supermicro X9SRL-F, 32 Gig Ram, 3ware 9750 6x6TB Seagate EC Drives, LSI 9207 + LTO-7, Mojo DX, Artist Color, Flanders CM240, GTX... [view my complete system specs]
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