Latest post Tue, May 11 2021 8:57 AM by buchel. 14 replies.
Page 1 of 1 (15 items)
Sort Posts: Previous Next
  • Thu, Dec 10 2020 4:35 PM

    • buchel
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Wed, Mar 15 2006
    • Cologne, Germany
    • Posts 73
    • Points 855

    progressive to interlaced jagged lines flickering and frameflex 180° field-order issues

    Hi,

    this thread is for all of you who are struggling with poor quality when using footage from the inflationary used low budget consumer cams like gopros or dji stuff or other Cams (A7 a.s.o.a.s.f) with progressive codecs in an interlaced project. (There are many threads about this and similar issues but none of them have a real solution I think)

    Also I want to draw the attention to another issue which you get when you use footage from gopro or other progressive cams bottom up in an interlaced project.

    Both issues happen with every MC Version I know so far.

    I start this thread to summarize everything I found or investigated to these topics and to get more information from you who have the same issues.

    Issues in short:

    Issue A)

    When changing the frame/field motion from progressive footage (25p or 50p) to 50i (for delivery) inside of avid you get jagged and flickering lines/edges and a blurry image.

    Issue B)

    When you get footage from a progressive cam (gopro/osmoaction…) recorded upside down, avid applies a frameflex with 180° Z-Rotation while linking. So the image is orientated right after that. But the result is an image with wrong field order (bff).  

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    About Issue A) :

    I found a lot of threads where some users suggested to encode the progressive files to 50i before ingesting. Other users suggested to edit/finalize in 50p. Export in 50p and then afterwards convert the file to 50i. Also some users did not see any issues. I guess they have the same issues but simply do not realize them. Some use premiere (with antiflickering), some use after effects, some use resolve. No one has a workflow inside of MediaComposer.  By the way I use FFMPEG.

    HELLO AVID are you aware of that?

    When I watch TV I see these jaggy and flickering lines everywhere. On the other hand there is also many content which looks gorgeous. So there are workflows which work and some don’t.

    Correct me when I am wrong: When it comes to DJI Equipment (Drones and Osmo) there is no workaround. You have to reinterlace the footage before you get it into Avid Media Composer. If not, the results are very disgusting and frustrating. I heard, the small chip in these devices creates too sharp images but this could not be the whole story.  

    For reinterlacing we take ffmpeg and the reinterlace filter. It takes odd lines from frame 1 and even lines from frame 2 and so on. The result is slightly blurry (maybe I can figure out a better algorithm in the future). But the motion is smooth and you don’t have the aliasing artefacts I mentioned before.

    When It comes to gopro footage the aliasing is not quite as annoying as it is with DJI. But it is still there. It gets worse when you activate the hypersmooth stabilize in the gopro 7 or higher. So you guess it: We should reinterlace it outside of Avid.

    But here is another problem: While the osmo or drone footage are only a few clips per shooting day, we get so much Gopro footage we can’t (do not have the time) convert it before ingesting. (48h of footage per day (from 8 Gopro Cams) 20 shooting days a week).

    We AMA link the 50p files into a bin and transcode the clips to XDCAM EX35 1080i50. -> jagged lines. If the image is used in the final edit and if it is too jaggy we take the clip, from original footage, reeinterlace the clip with ffmpeg and then reedit it into the timeline. Not a very handy workflow.

    And for those people who think shooting in 25p or ingesting in 25p is the holy grail: I do not think so. When you use the Gopros as bodymount cams you get seasick when you not have the motion smoothness you get from 50p or 50i. Reinterlaceing with Motion Adaptor and rendersettings ->”use frameblending in motion adaptors” leads to ugly artifacts. And the jagged lines are also there. We made some tests. And on the other hand if you do not activate the frame blending setting you get 25p motion. Which is also not what we need.

    Does anyone has a quick solution for a huge amount of footage? Maybe Marianna or Pat?

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    About Issue B)

    We are dealing with the same Gopro clips from Issue A.

    Some of theme where shot upside down. Avid MC is so kind to add a frameflex with 180° Z-Rotation while linking so you could see the image in the right way. But now it gets complicated:

    We shoot in a multicam environment. So we group all the footage. Since Multigroup Mode could not render on the fly we see every Image which was shot upside down, you guess it, upside down. Our Editors hate it.

    So we thought it would be a good idea to burn in and apply the source transformation while the initial transcode of the footage from 1080p50 to 1080i50. A really good and handy idea I thought. Every footage was orientated in the right way in the group, everything seemed to be fine.

    But, no, not so with Avid Media Composer. After the transformation is applied and transcoding has been done the field order is wrong. I guess the order of the transcode process is

    first interlace then

    Z-rotate. It should be the other way around.

    So when we make the final adjustments, we have to “Commit Multicam Edits” “re-Z-Rotate” the image and then apply a good oldfashioned Flip-Flop effect on every clip which is bottom-up

    Avid? Really?

    What is your supposed way to do this.

    Requirements:

    1.     Getting to edit fast in a shared storage environment

    2.     Edit every image in groups with the right orientation

    3.     Avoid field order issues

    4.     Preserve the 50p or I motion

    5.     Deliver in 1080i50

     

    **********************************

    When I watch TV I can see which content has been created with Avid Mediacomposer because of these quality issues.

    @Avid: I would like to get the best quality out of my footage. Please provide me the tool for that. Do you think 1080i50 is no longer used or do you think everyone shoots in the framerate and field motion he delivers? Not in my world.

    Since there are a lot older posts and Avid never dealt with it I guess there will be no fix for those issues in the future. So I investigate further in using ffmpeg. I hope I am wrong.

    My goal is to program a script which takes any footage. Converts it to clean and crisp 1080i50 directly in a codec we like (DNxHD120 so far, but I would like to get XDCAMEX or HD working also to safe storage space). And output directly in Avid Media Files - MXF OP Atom. Since FFMPEG is quite fast and you safe the time for consolidating, this could be a good solution. And if I can read out the rotation flags from the original files (I guess I will) I can auto rotate the image while converting. Both issues will be gone.

    But I would prefer If Avid finds a way to get these things working inside of Media Composer.

    ***********************************

    Am I missing something?  Is anyone with same issues here? Maybe we can work together on a solution?

    Sorry for the very long post but this kept me busy for a very long time now. I hope we will get a solution together.

    Regards

    40 workstations HP and DIY, WIN 10 64bit MC 2018.12.12 and 2020.10 Elements Shared Storage 720TB Arista 40GbE Backbone, 10 GBaseT Clients. Editshare... [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Dec 11 2020 12:56 AM In reply to

    Re: progressive to interlaced jagged lines flickering and frameflex 180° field-order issues

    Thanks for your informative post, buchel. I certainly learned a few things. You probably have heard of Shutter Encoder. v14.4 has all sorts of Advanced Features including Force De-interlacing and many other items. The creator is brilliant, imo. I will watch this thread with interest. Hope to see your approach to GoPro Moire after you get these items solved...

    Squeeze v11 EOL-Pro Sony BM2100 Telecine with variable speed controller Casio VL-Tone, CZ-101, LCD watch AJA i/o Express with Express Card Slot Ignite... [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Dec 11 2020 7:33 AM In reply to

    • buchel
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Wed, Mar 15 2006
    • Cologne, Germany
    • Posts 73
    • Points 855

    Re: progressive to interlaced jagged lines flickering and frameflex 180° field-order issues

    Hello Telegram!, 

    thank you. No, I did not notice the Shutter Encoder before. Seems to be a very nice tool. I guess it uses FFMPEG in the background. I will play around with that in the next days. At first glance I miss the output as OP Atom files, so you have to consolidate the files after encoding and i miss the XDCAM EX 35 codec (nice to have). 

    Do you know if the "force interlacing" button does an interpolation like Mediacomposer does (50p->25p->interpolate50i) or if it alternating takes the odd/even lines from the 50 frames/s? If it does interpolation and the result is good I do not mind. 

    Also Marianna contacted me via E-Mail and additionally created two support cases for me. If the support team find a solution I will post it here.

    In case you or anyone else want to try the ffmpeg reinterlace quality here is the command we use for now. 

    ffmpeg -i "inputfile" -vcodec dnxhd -b:v 120M -q 1 -flags +ildct -vf  "scale=1920:1080,interlace,fieldorder=tff" "outputfile"

    Simple as that.

    Regards

    40 workstations HP and DIY, WIN 10 64bit MC 2018.12.12 and 2020.10 Elements Shared Storage 720TB Arista 40GbE Backbone, 10 GBaseT Clients. Editshare... [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Dec 14 2020 4:42 PM In reply to

    • taner
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Mon, Dec 14 2020
    • Posts 1
    • Points 15

    Re: progressive to interlaced jagged lines flickering and frameflex 180° field-order issues

    Hi  buchel,

    At my facility we transcode only DJI-, GoPro, Smartphone- and AVC-footage outside of Media Composer.

    Providing it is natively supported all other footage will be consolidated within Media Composer.

    For transcoding-purposes outside of Media Composer we are using FFAStrans (https://www.ffastrans.com).

    It relies on ffmpeg as well as AviSynth.

    It is a very powerful frontend which gives you a lot of possibilities for unattended workflows (watchfolder), altering tasks as you wish (e.g. with conditionals and customized variables) and also creating directly MXF OP-Atom-files in XDCAM- or DNxHD-codec.

    It is intended for creating complex workflows.

    I'm pretty sure you can achieve most if not all of your goals with this software.

    The software is for free but is running only on windows-machines.

    Concerning DJI-footage we are using within FFAStrans a combination of ffmpeg (lowpassfilter) and avisynth-filters. It creates pretty good results (similar to antiflicker in Premiere).

    I'm not sure if GoPro-files provide a rotation-tag.

    If possible you should be able to implement that in a FFAStrans-workflow in order to make your transcoding-workflow universal.

    If needed I can provide you with some workflow-tips for FFAStrans.

    Best

    Taner

     

     

  • Tue, Dec 15 2020 11:09 AM In reply to

    • buchel
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Wed, Mar 15 2006
    • Cologne, Germany
    • Posts 73
    • Points 855

    Re: progressive to interlaced jagged lines flickering and frameflex 180° field-order issues

    Hi Taner,

    thank you for your reply.

    taner:
    At my facility we transcode only DJI-, GoPro, Smartphone- and AVC-footage outside of Media Composer.

    This is what we normally do, when we do not have a daily show with tons of such footage. 

    taner:
    For transcoding-purposes outside of Media Composer we are using FFAStrans

    We tested ffastrans multiple times in the past. A very nice tool. But we had some issues (random crashes and other things I can not remember, which disqualified it for us). A few days ago I tested it again. Unfortnately you can not use longGOP codecs like  XDCAMHD or XDCAMEX35 with OP-Atom. I know that DNxHD is more edit-friendly but since it is 3,5 times bigger (XDCAM EX35-> DNxHD120) it would fill up our shared storage too fast.

    taner:
    Concerning DJI-footage we are using within FFAStrans a combination of ffmpeg (lowpassfilter) and avisynth-filters. It creates pretty good results (similar to antiflicker in Premiere).

    We encode DJI Footage with a simple cmd ffmpeg script. (have a look above) We do not use the lowpass filter but the reinterlace option. With decent results too. But to make it work best the cameras have to be recorded in 50p. The Camera operators (most of them do not know the possibilities in the postproduction) are telling me I have to use 25p instead. I do not think so. 

    taner:
    I'm not sure if GoPro-files provide a rotation-tag.

    Media Info tells me Rotation =180°

    taner:
    If needed I can provide you with some workflow-tips for FFAStrans.

    Great offer, thank you. I would prefer a good workflow within Avid Mediacomposer but as a workaround... I will come back to you If we plan to use it. 

    Best buchel

     

     

     

     

    40 workstations HP and DIY, WIN 10 64bit MC 2018.12.12 and 2020.10 Elements Shared Storage 720TB Arista 40GbE Backbone, 10 GBaseT Clients. Editshare... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Dec 15 2020 11:27 AM In reply to

    • buchel
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Wed, Mar 15 2006
    • Cologne, Germany
    • Posts 73
    • Points 855

    Re: progressive to interlaced jagged lines flickering and frameflex 180° field-order issues

    I made a testing sequence with three different approaches and two different input files (one is 50p and one is 25p)

    Here are two screenshots with results side by side. Even in still you can see differences when you look at diagonal lines. It is worse when you playback the sequence.

     

    Example1.th.jpg Example2.th.jpg


    From left to right: 

    1. Left: Link into Bin (project 1080i50) with Settings>Render>use framblending in Motion adaptors=ON , Transcode to 1080i50 XDCAMEX35

    2. Middle: Encode with ffmpeg script above, Link into Bin (project 1080i50), Consolidate

    3. Right: Link into Bin (project 1080i50) with Settings>Render>use framblending in Motion adaptors=OFF , Transcode to 1080i50 XDCAMEX35, Add 3dWarp with Defocus/Internal/V=2,H=0

     

    with 50p source footage the results are:

    1. 50i motion with heavily flickering lines and a lot of noise. sharp

    2. 50i motion without flickering lines, low noise, less sharp but decent quality

    3. 25p motion with heavily flickering lines and a lot of noise. unsharp

     

    with 25p source footage the results are:

    1. 25p motion with some flickering lines and a some noise. sharp

    2. 25p motion with less flickering lines, low noise

    3. 25p motion with some flickering lines and a some noise. unsharp

     

    I will also send the seqence to the AVID support. 

     

    Next test will be the same worklfows in a 1080p25 and a 1080p50 project, but output again in 1080i50 since that is what we have to deliver. 

    Best buchel

     

    40 workstations HP and DIY, WIN 10 64bit MC 2018.12.12 and 2020.10 Elements Shared Storage 720TB Arista 40GbE Backbone, 10 GBaseT Clients. Editshare... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Dec 15 2020 12:19 PM In reply to

    Re: progressive to interlaced jagged lines flickering and frameflex 180° field-order issues

    In pause aren't you only seeing one field? You only see both fields when in playback mode don't you?

    HP Z840 3.1GHZ 20cores 128GB RAM M4000 GPU 1TB NVMe drive HP Z book 17 G2 2.7GHZ Quad core 32GB RAM Nvidia K3100M 1TB SSD drive ACI Moderator. I'm... [view my complete system specs]

     

    Broadcast & Post Production Consultant / Trainer  Avid Certified Instructor VET

     

    QC/QAR Training - Understanding Digital Media - Advanced Files * Compression - Avid Ingest - PSE fixing courses and more

    All bespoke and delivered onsite at yours. Or delivered via hosted Zoom session.

     

    T 07581 201248 | E pat@vet-training.co.uk | W www.vet-training.co.uk |

     

  • Tue, Dec 15 2020 1:57 PM In reply to

    • Vilem
    • Top 75 Contributor
    • Joined on Sat, Apr 10 2010
    • Prague
    • Posts 1,438
    • Points 15,785

    Re: progressive to interlaced jagged lines flickering and frameflex 180° field-order issues

    Hello,

    I use 50p material commonly used in 50i projects. Connection via AMA and transcoding to DNx ...

    The devil is hidden in detail,

    it is necessary to have turned on in Render Settings: "Use frame blending in Motion Adapters "

    and Image Interpolation: Advanced.

    V.

    AVID MC2021.06, HP Z620 - 2 x Intel Xeon E5-2620, Quadro P2000 - driver 461.72, RAM 48GB - DDR3, BM Intensity Pro 4k - 12.1, W10 - 64bit Professional... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Dec 15 2020 2:11 PM In reply to

    • buchel
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Wed, Mar 15 2006
    • Cologne, Germany
    • Posts 73
    • Points 855

    Re: progressive to interlaced jagged lines flickering and frameflex 180° field-order issues

    Hi Pat, yes of course. The screenshots are there to get an idea. You have to play the sequence on an interlaced monitor to see the real issues. 

     

    40 workstations HP and DIY, WIN 10 64bit MC 2018.12.12 and 2020.10 Elements Shared Storage 720TB Arista 40GbE Backbone, 10 GBaseT Clients. Editshare... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Dec 15 2020 2:15 PM In reply to

    • buchel
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Wed, Mar 15 2006
    • Cologne, Germany
    • Posts 73
    • Points 855

    Re: progressive to interlaced jagged lines flickering and frameflex 180° field-order issues

    Hi Vilem,

    thank you for your advice.

    Vilem:
    and Image Interpolation: Advanced.

    I activated the "Advanced" Render setting before I linked and transcoded the clips. I also made some test without. The quality difference is minimal with my footage. 

    Best Buchel

    40 workstations HP and DIY, WIN 10 64bit MC 2018.12.12 and 2020.10 Elements Shared Storage 720TB Arista 40GbE Backbone, 10 GBaseT Clients. Editshare... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Dec 15 2020 4:11 PM In reply to

    • knejmann
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Fri, Nov 4 2005
    • Århus, Denmark
    • Posts 257
    • Points 2,875

    Re: progressive to interlaced jagged lines flickering and frameflex 180° field-order issues

    buchel:
    ffmpeg -i "inputfile" -vcodec dnxhd -b:v 120M -q 1 -flags +ildct -vf "scale=1920:1080,interlace,fieldorder=tff" "outputfile"

    This is a small detail but the last filter has no effect as the "interlace" filter should mark the output as interlaced tff.

    "scale=1920:1080,interlace" is enough or "scale=1920:1080,interlace=scan=tff" for easier understanding (tff is default).

     

    buchel:
    Do you know if the "force interlacing" button does an interpolation like Mediacomposer does (50p->25p->interpolate50i) or if it alternating takes the odd/even lines from the 50 frames/s? If it does interpolation and the result is good I do not mind. 

    If in Shutter Encoder if you click "Add to queue" you can get a peak at the ffmpeg command that will be run. The help text assosiated with "Force interlacing" says it will interleave if the source is 50p or 60p - otherwise it looks like the button only adds this to the ffmpeg command line: "-top 1 -flags +ildct+ilme"

    Media Composer 2020.12.1 - Windows 10 - Dell 8520 - Blackmagic Decklink Studio 4K - Interplay and NEXIS storage - Avid Artist Color. [view my complete system specs]

    Kåre Nejmann

    Danish Broadcasting Corporation - DR
    Aarhus, Denmark 

  • Tue, Dec 15 2020 4:35 PM In reply to

    • knejmann
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Fri, Nov 4 2005
    • Århus, Denmark
    • Posts 257
    • Points 2,875

    Re: progressive to interlaced jagged lines flickering and frameflex 180° field-order issues

    buchel:
    Correct me when I am wrong: When it comes to DJI Equipment (Drones and Osmo) there is no workaround. You have to reinterlace the footage before you get it into Avid Media Composer. If not, the results are very disgusting and frustrating. I heard, the small chip in these devices creates too sharp images but this could not be the whole story.

    There are strange things happening in DJI gear. My guess is it's a combo of small chips with no/inadequate anti-aliasing filter, high level of electronic sharpening and fast downscaling.

    I use a wide range of tricks and whatnot to make it useable in post :-/

    buchel:
    For reinterlacing we take ffmpeg and the reinterlace filter. It takes odd lines from frame 1 and even lines from frame 2 and so on. The result is slightly blurry (maybe I can figure out a better algorithm in the future). But the motion is smooth and you don’t have the aliasing artefacts I mentioned before.

    If you use interlace=lowpass=off or interlace=lowpass=2 in the ffmpeg filter chain you should get a sharper image but possibly more moire/twitter - see https://ffmpeg.org/ffmpeg-filters.html#interlace

     

    One question: If you take the linked 50p material, edit it to a 50i timeline and promote the motion adapter to a timewarp is there ANY setting that gives a useable result?

     

    Media Composer 2020.12.1 - Windows 10 - Dell 8520 - Blackmagic Decklink Studio 4K - Interplay and NEXIS storage - Avid Artist Color. [view my complete system specs]

    Kåre Nejmann

    Danish Broadcasting Corporation - DR
    Aarhus, Denmark 

  • Tue, Dec 15 2020 5:01 PM In reply to

    Re: progressive to interlaced jagged lines flickering and frameflex 180° field-order issues

    There are drones that produce good results in post so its clearly the way certain cameras create their content and yes I too suspect its small chips and low cost processing that create files that don't handle well in Post.

    For non drone footage I regularly convert 25P and 50P to 50i without issues.

     

    HP Z840 3.1GHZ 20cores 128GB RAM M4000 GPU 1TB NVMe drive HP Z book 17 G2 2.7GHZ Quad core 32GB RAM Nvidia K3100M 1TB SSD drive ACI Moderator. I'm... [view my complete system specs]

     

    Broadcast & Post Production Consultant / Trainer  Avid Certified Instructor VET

     

    QC/QAR Training - Understanding Digital Media - Advanced Files * Compression - Avid Ingest - PSE fixing courses and more

    All bespoke and delivered onsite at yours. Or delivered via hosted Zoom session.

     

    T 07581 201248 | E pat@vet-training.co.uk | W www.vet-training.co.uk |

     

  • Thu, Dec 17 2020 4:13 PM In reply to

    • buchel
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Wed, Mar 15 2006
    • Cologne, Germany
    • Posts 73
    • Points 855

    Re: progressive to interlaced jagged lines flickering and frameflex 180° field-order issues

    Hi knejmann,

    knejmann:
    If you use interlace=lowpass=off or interlace=lowpass=2 in the ffmpeg filter chain you should get a sharper image but possibly more moire/twitter - see https://ffmpeg.org/ffmpeg-filters.html#interlace

    thank you. This clarifies why the image gets blurry because of the default linear lowpass. I tested all three options side by side. lowpass=0 leads to the same issues you get directly inside of avid media composer. lowpass=2 would be a good alternative for gopro footage i guess. For DJI Footage I stay with the lowpass=1 option. Otherwise I get annoying twittering lines. 

    knejmann:
    One question: If you take the linked 50p material, edit it to a 50i timeline and promote the motion adapter to a timewarp is there ANY setting that gives a useable result

    I tested all possible combinations. (input prog/interl; output prog/interl. ; all algorithms)

    Exept the motion which changes from field to progressive motion there was no noticeable change in quality. All resulting videos stayed flickering.

     Best Buchel

     

     

     

    40 workstations HP and DIY, WIN 10 64bit MC 2018.12.12 and 2020.10 Elements Shared Storage 720TB Arista 40GbE Backbone, 10 GBaseT Clients. Editshare... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, May 11 2021 8:57 AM In reply to

    • buchel
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Wed, Mar 15 2006
    • Cologne, Germany
    • Posts 73
    • Points 855

    Re: progressive to interlaced jagged lines flickering and frameflex 180° field-order issues

    Hi again,

    al long time has passed by. 

    Recently there was an update in my case. After the developer reviewed the issue, they came to the conclusion that the issue is by design of media Composer and cannot be fixed. They recommend transcoding the UHD to progressive HD first. 

    I never talked about UHD footage. So this workaround is not helping me. By the way, the image quality degrades with UHD as well. But that did not bother them. 

    The support case is closed now. I reopened it with my notes above but it has been closed imediately. So there will not be a solution for this.

    Sad.

    Thank you all for trying to fix this. 

    Regards Buchel

     

    Here is the support answer:
    Hello,
    
    This behavior is a Media Composer limitation. You can read more about it on page 7 from the following Read Me file:
    
    http://resources.avid.com/SupportFiles/attach/README_Avid_Editor_v21.5.pdf
    
    However, we recommend as a workaround to first transcode the UHD progressive clip to HD progressive and then add the HD clip to the interlace sequence. It forces the resize operation from UHD to HD to be done before the split gets into interlace mode.
    
    40 workstations HP and DIY, WIN 10 64bit MC 2018.12.12 and 2020.10 Elements Shared Storage 720TB Arista 40GbE Backbone, 10 GBaseT Clients. Editshare... [view my complete system specs]
Page 1 of 1 (15 items)

© Copyright 2011 Avid Technology, Inc.  Terms of Use |  Privacy Policy |  Site Map |  Find a Reseller