Latest post Fri, May 30 2014 6:35 PM by Job ter Burg. 31 replies.
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  • Thu, May 29 2014 1:20 PM In reply to

    • Kyle
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    Re: Why shoot 24p for TV?

    jwrl:

     Not only did it not disturb me one iota, I was too busy watching the story to to pay much attention to the lack of flicker.

     

    I guess it really is subjective then. I was just the opposite. The frame rate was so distracting that I could barely pay attention to the story. It looked like one of those old movies that was shot at 16 then played back at 24 and then everyone ends up doing a Sped up Charlie Chaplin dance. And yes I know that the action on screen at 48 FPS  isn't sped up but it still looks  that way to my eyes. Even 30 can look like that. Guess I'm just too used to 24 and/or pull down.

     

     

  • Fri, May 30 2014 12:21 PM In reply to

    • mBlaze
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    Re: Why shoot 24p for TV?

    24p gives you a better picture for the datarate if you are producing for corporate where most videos are deployed via the web. If you are producing for TV, I would think the video should be shot for whatever frame rate the local TV system uses.
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  • Fri, May 30 2014 12:31 PM In reply to

    Re: Why shoot 24p for TV?

    mBlaze:
    whatever frame rate the local TV system uses
    Unless you aim for a wider distribution that just the local TV.

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  • Fri, May 30 2014 12:40 PM In reply to

    Re: Why shoot 24p for TV?

    Job ter Burg:

    mBlaze:
    whatever frame rate the local TV system uses
    Unless you aim for a wider distribution that just the local TV.

     

    Then I'd go with 30fps or 29.97fps

    25fps is my next choice and 24fps is my last choice.

    24fps was introduced to allow the audio track to be added. As we no longer need an optical audio track I guess for the real purists we should switch down to 16fps like the old silent days.

    Why stay at 24fps which I guess when they introduced it lots of folks felt look to "real"..

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  • Fri, May 30 2014 12:48 PM In reply to

    Re: Why shoot 24p for TV?

    I'm still in the camp that likes Universal Mastering. 30/29.97 nor 25 are that. YMMV, to each his own, etc.

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  • Fri, May 30 2014 1:09 PM In reply to

    Re: Why shoot 24p for TV?

    Job ter Burg:

    I'm still in the camp that likes Universal Mastering. 30/29.97 nor 25 are that. YMMV, to each his own, etc.

     

    We quite often go 25 > 24 or 24>25 sometimes with frame blending more more often frame for frame (so duration and audio changes)

    For 29.97 we alchemist. I had the 3:2 pull up down. Ok for offline but no good for finishing.

    I even have the joy sometimes of UK content for UK TV at 25fps being shot at 23.98. Great!

    On a related note Job is the console command to ignore AMA frame rate broken in 7.0.3/4?

    I needed to use it the other day but had no joy. I had to use import and the console command for that.

    I've made a feature request that we have framerate control as an AMA source setting. That would be cool.

    Probably too cool for Avid. I can just hear the developers asking "why would anyone wnat to override an AMA linked clips framerate?"

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  • Fri, May 30 2014 1:25 PM In reply to

    Re: Why shoot 24p for TV?

    Not sure, will try. *edit* tested in 7.0.3: broken.

     

    We need Universal Mastering for file-based workflows. Including some sort of "Interpret As" that controls picture and sound. I get 24-25 questions bi-weekly, so Lord knows it's a needed feature.

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  • Fri, May 30 2014 3:19 PM In reply to

    Re: Why shoot 24p for TV?

    Job ter Burg:

    Not sure, will try. *edit* tested in 7.0.3: broken.

     

    We need Universal Mastering for file-based workflows. Including some sort of "Interpret As" that controls picture and sound. I get 24-25 questions bi-weekly, so Lord knows it's a needed feature.

    How great if MC could AMA link to a 24fps source and playback at true 25 with pitch corrected audio.

     

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  • Fri, May 30 2014 3:36 PM In reply to

    Re: Why shoot 24p for TV?

    Pat Horridge:
    How great if MC could AMA link to a 24fps source and playback at true 25 with pitch corrected audio.
    Playing it in sync would be great. Adjusting the pitch is much better to do as a separate step.

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  • Fri, May 30 2014 4:03 PM In reply to

    Re: Why shoot 24p for TV?

    Job ter Burg:

    mBlaze:
    whatever frame rate the local TV system uses
    Unless you aim for a wider distribution that just the local TV.

    It not just "local" TV.  99.999% of all network television programs never go to theatrical distribution.  29.97 is the delivery frame rate in every country that broadcasts in NTSC.

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  • Fri, May 30 2014 4:14 PM In reply to

    Re: Why shoot 24p for TV?

    A interesting anecdote:  I shot a commercial spot recently and a producer assumed it was shot on a high-end digital cinema camera at 24fps.   I actually shot the footage on a Sony EX1R at 30p with a Tiffen 1/4 Black Pro Mist Filter and a little bit of creative backlighting. 

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  • Fri, May 30 2014 5:19 PM In reply to

    • Ben Wilson
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    Re: Why shoot 24p for TV?

    Job ter Burg:

    jwrl:
    I was too busy watching the story
    There was story in that movie?

    Well.......  I saw a lot of flame in Desolation of Smaug........

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  • Fri, May 30 2014 5:21 PM In reply to

    Re: Why shoot 24p for TV?

    Terry Snyder:
    It not just "local" TV.  99.999% of all network television programs never go to theatrical distribution.  29.97 is the delivery frame rate in every country that broadcasts in NTSC.
    I wasn't talking theatrical, I was talking PAL and NTSC deliverables off a Universal Master. Also, besides traditional broadcast, there is OTT delivery - which usually requires you deliver in the "original format". And of your "99.999% of all network television" I'd bet that there is a much larger percentage that ends up being sold for some other form of distribution, foreign/domestic, broadcast/on demand, etc. Your 30p spot won't easily translate to anything in the 50Hz world, for instance.

    Somehow people think of their broadcast deliverable as their master. That's odd to me. There's a production master, and there are one or more deliverables. They need not all be in the same format or frame rate. Frame rate is a creative choice along with focal length, composition, shutter speed, movement, and the thousand other things storytellers use to create the overall experience.

    And IMHO considering interlaced formats at all seems weird these days. Interlaced broadcast on modern progressive devices (TV, mobile, otherwise) just adds unneeded processing downstream - which you as a maker have no control over.

     

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  • Fri, May 30 2014 5:45 PM In reply to

    Re: Why shoot 24p for TV?

    I'm happy to lose interlaced but only when I can have 30P or 50P.

    29.97 is just too complicated with the timecodes....

     

    We just finished a 90 feature shot for DCI but shot at 25P. Then slowed down to 24 for the DCI but all the UK deliverables were at 25 which worked ok.

    Not sure why the DCP was done at 24 as most projectors will handle 25 fine. So they either played safe or wanted a 24fps look for the theatre viewing.

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    Broadcast & Post Production Consultant / Trainer  Avid Certified Instructor VET

     

    QC/QAR Training - Understanding Digital Media - Advanced Files * Compression - Avid Ingest - PSE fixing courses and more

    All bespoke and delivered onsite at yours. Or delivered via hosted Zoom session.

     

    T 07581 201248 | E pat@vet-training.co.uk | W www.vet-training.co.uk |

     

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  • Fri, May 30 2014 6:15 PM In reply to

    Re: Why shoot 24p for TV?

    Job ter Burg:
    of your "99.999% of all network television" I'd bet that there is a much larger percentage that ends up being sold for some other form of distribution, foreign/domestic, broadcast/on demand, etc.

    All of my work is for American broadcast television, but I would love to have distribution in those other venues.   Can you recommend a good agent?  Wink

    MC 2018.12.3 with Symphony, Matrox MX02 Mini Max, Win 7 Pro, HP Z800 2x6-Core 3.2Ghz Xeon, 48GB ram, Quadro K4200, SanDisk Extreme 240GB SSD as system... [view my complete system specs]

    I have a fantastic editing assistant.  He stays by my side when I edit...doesn't talk too much...and thinks I'm a genius!    Check him out here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQVkYaaPO6g

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