Latest post Sat, Oct 29 2005 5:46 AM by AndrewAction. 7 replies.
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  • Fri, Oct 14 2005 8:14 AM

    • DylanReeve
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    Frame Accurate Digitising

    This relates to the problems that were frequently rehashed in the old forums - specifically the fact that some Sony cameras appear to create small discontinuities in timecode (1-3 frames) when recording after being powered off, or entering standby mode. This combined with Avid's inability to detect timecode breaks of less than 6 frames, and it's reliance on framecounting once initial deck sync has been achieved means that each time a clip is digitised that crosses these breaks, that the timecode data Avid records is no longer an accurate representation of the timecode of the footage it is recording.

    With 40 minute tapes being digitised in one go for offline cuts in some cases, this can result in quite significant discrepencies by the end of the tape (up to 18 frames in one case I've observed).

    This is causing major headaches for many online editors who are forced to find ways of ensuring that the footage they recapture or conform is accurate to the edit (rather than the timecode, which may not be reliable).

    In editing, where the relationship between timecode and the frame it represents is of paramount concern, this seems to be a pretty major problem.

    Ideally, I would like to see Avid be able to detect the micro-breaks and split the clip as necessary, rather than have to stop and recue as with normal timecode breaks - which would seem possible as the CTL track is never broken in these cases.

    I welcome feedback from Avid or other editors on this issue.

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  • Thu, Oct 27 2005 4:29 PM In reply to

    Super Angry [8o|] Re: Frame Accurate Digitising

    Idealy, the camera should sort this out, or you realize it's the camera, and you re-stripe contigous time code on those reels.

    JDS
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  • Fri, Oct 28 2005 3:51 AM In reply to

    • DylanReeve
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    Re: Frame Accurate Digitising

     Jeff D Sengpiehl wrote:
    Idealy, the camera should sort this out, or you realize it's the camera, and you re-stripe contigous time code on those reels. JDS


    This problem seems to occur with many many Sony cameras (DV and Digibeta). While it can be avoided with careful camera operation, it is a problem that does exist, and the currect shortfall in Avid's handling of these micro-breaks creates serious problems later on (namely in online).

    You try telling a producer that they should dub their 140 camera tapes to have new continuious timecode because Avid will not notice the small timecode breaks that the camera has created.

    Sony should fix it's cameras, but above all, Avid needs to record reliable timecode - it is the be-all and end-all of editing, the timecode is most important bit.
    HP Workstations with MC 8.4 64TB EditShare XStream Storage [view my complete system specs]

    Dylan Reeve - Edit Geek // Online/Offline Editor // Post Production Supervisor
    Auckland, New Zealand

     

  • Fri, Oct 28 2005 6:34 AM In reply to

    Re: Frame Accurate Digitising

    Please don’t start me on this!! I've ranted on this here too often. Accureate TC capture should be essential on every NLE.

    I have not checked recently but you used to be able to set Avid to record over TC breaks.  Have the cameraman reset a new TC 15 minutes before the last TC of the previous shot and record.  As there is no significant break in the incoming TC data stream Avid will happily record the clip across the cut with one continuous TC.  Resulting in a clip that is 15 minutes out on the second shot. (not something you would do intentionally but it happened on a tape here with a camera developing a fault and the TC randomly reset throughout the day)


    TM this clearly indicates that Avid checked for the presence of a TC data stream but takes no notice of the actual numbers. (nor do FCP or PP but thats no excuse) Never a problem if you are capturing dubbed dailies but in the world of eng style shooting FM it is an absolute pain in the butt.


  • Fri, Oct 28 2005 8:08 AM In reply to

    • DylanReeve
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    Re: Frame Accurate Digitising

    I simply don't understand why they don't monitor or at least check accuracy against the incoming timecode data.

    It seems incredible to me that this should be allowed to happen.

    Here is my summary of the inaccurate timecode issue as I understand it:
    Offline Timecode Slip

    This is especially problematic for me, as in many cases we would like to conform these shows in our linear online suite, but the inability to slip shots to match the offline cut makes this impossible. This means we have to do non-linear onlines where they aren't needed.

    HP Workstations with MC 8.4 64TB EditShare XStream Storage [view my complete system specs]

    Dylan Reeve - Edit Geek // Online/Offline Editor // Post Production Supervisor
    Auckland, New Zealand

     

  • Sat, Oct 29 2005 3:56 AM In reply to

    Cool [H] Re: Frame Accurate Digitising

    <BLOCKQUOTE><table width="85%"><tr><td class="txt4"><img src="/exchange/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif">&nbsp;<strong>Sycophant wrote:</strong></td></tr><tr><td class="quoteTable"><table width="100%"><tr><td width="100%" valign="top" class="txt4">
    You try telling a producer that they should dub their 140 camera tapes
    to have new continuious timecode because Avid will not notice the small
    timecode breaks that the camera has created.<br>
    </td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Let me at 'em, I'll do that in a hot second.

    "hey, your camera operators are negligent, and your production people simply say "well, fix it in post" They're jacking with your budget because of their own incompetence. you just bill the production side back the cost of finding and fixing this crap"

    'cause I've said it before, time and time again. Fix it in post, my eye. Clean up your own mess.

    JDS

    All (yes, all - try me.) [view my complete system specs]
    dura lex, sed lex
  • Sat, Oct 29 2005 5:18 AM In reply to

    • DylanReeve
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    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
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    Re: Frame Accurate Digitising

     Jeff D Sengpiehl wrote:
     Sycophant wrote:
    You try telling a producer that they should dub their 140 camera tapes to have new continuious timecode because Avid will not notice the small timecode breaks that the camera has created.
    Let me at 'em, I'll do that in a hot second. "hey, your camera operators are negligent, and your production people simply say "well, fix it in post" They're jacking with your budget because of their own incompetence. you just bill the production side back the cost of finding and fixing this crap" 'cause I've said it before, time and time again. Fix it in post, my eye. Clean up your own mess. JDS


    Well yes and no.. .By the time it gets to me it's already been digitised at offline and it's simply not an option to do that.

    Also the camera operators aren't really being nebligent, it seems to be a design flaw with some cameras - they don't quite pickup the previous timecode properly after a power cycle. Obviously there are things camera operators can do to reduce the problem, but regardless, it seems incredible to me that a product like Avid isn't recording the ACTUAL timecode, but simply maintaining a count, especially when it can't detect very small timecode discrepencies.
    HP Workstations with MC 8.4 64TB EditShare XStream Storage [view my complete system specs]

    Dylan Reeve - Edit Geek // Online/Offline Editor // Post Production Supervisor
    Auckland, New Zealand

     

  • Sat, Oct 29 2005 5:46 AM In reply to

    Re: Frame Accurate Digitising

    Jeff are your posts in this thread reasonable examples of how you repond, or expect responses to be, in the L2?
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