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  • Tue, Jan 25 2011 8:02 AM

    • Marianna
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    Liquid and Drag & Drop

     

    I am starting this thread to try and dispell some of the myths surrounding Liquid and MC.
    The main one being how Liquid is D&D whereas MC is a keyboard controlled editor.

    Unlike many of the moderators on these forums I have a long history within Liquid. In fact I began back in 1998 or 1999 with FAST SudioDV.. which later developed into Pinnacle Liquid Edition. It was a great NLE. I was doing HDV editing in Liquid about 1 year before any of the big boys had HDV editing in their applications.

    I moved to MC at the time of the last of the Liquid Immersion gatherings and have used it daily ever since.

    On a recent thread, in answer to some claims about Liquid in comparison to MC I said the following:

    It is a shame that not more Liquid users discovered the advantages of using the keyboard when they were using Liquid. It would have made your/our migration so much simpler. Please don't try to blame MC for the problems you seem to be having adjusting.

    Let me explain what I mean by quoting from a copy of the Pinnacle Liquid Manual.

    "Keyboard Shortcuts
    Pinnacle Liquid has many functions that can be executed
    via the keyboard. It is even possible to customize the key
    assignments – i.e. to assign functions to keys – to match your
    own personal preferences and requirements."

    This is exactly what MC does. The point being - .... to match your own personal preferences and requirements.
    As Larry and others have pointed out - he(they) use D&D and customised keyboard commands depending on what they want to do. The possibility was always there in Liquid too.

    Another quote from the Liquid Manual

    "This section introduces several methods for inserting and trimming
    clips on the Timeline. You can also combine these methods,
    and it will be beneficial to select one or the other,
    depending on the particular situation"

    Also from the Liquid Manual,

    "When Should You Use Which Method?
    In the Step by Step section, you were shown various methods
    for inserting clips on the Timeline.
    The Edit Styles were introduced,
    along with the different methods for trimming: In the
    Source Viewer, on the Timeline using Handles and in the Trim
    Editor.
    The main difference between the methods for inserting clips is:
    When you insert a clip using drag & drop, i.e. when you
    drag the clip and drop it on the Timeline, the clip is
    grouped and inserted on the Tracks without regard for the
    settings. This method is very simple.
    "

    Yes, and I also found it very simple, so I used D&D almost exclusively back in those days. I was lazy. Why should I learn to use the keyboard when I could use D&D?

    When I had paid my 2,995 usd for the special discount offer at that time (Yes that is what I paid!!) I decided that if I was going to have a professional level NLE then I should take time and actually learn to use it the way that the pros used it. I uninstalled Liquid about 2 weeks after installing MC. I did that to force myself to learn how to use MC. (I realise that not everyone has the possibility of doing that. E.g. If you are in the middle of a job etc.....)

    Later in the Liquid Manual you can read the following........

    "When you insert a clip using the Insert Arrow, you must
    take into account the settings in the Track header area –
    Mapping, Activation – and the Edit style. If you want to
    separate audio and video in any case and if you’ve already
    trimmed in the Source Viewer, this method gives you complete
    control over where the clips are inserted.
    The main difference between the Edit styles is:
    In Overwrite Style, you overwrite any clips located behind
    the insertion point.
    In Film Style, you shift any clips located behind the Playline
    or the Mark-in (our insertion point), I.e. a clip may
    also be split but retains its full length.
    If a Mark-in has been set on the Timeline the clip is inserted at
    the Mark-in, otherwise at the position of the Playline"

    Sounds simple? Does it really? It is much simpler in MC.

    In other threads I have read how much easier it is to do a FreezeFrame in Liquid than in MC. Good point. I agree it is much simpler.
    But for me, I couldn't care less as I seldom have need for this function. When I do need it I can use MCs method quite easily.... even if an extra minute is involved. Again I realise that some people rely on freeze-frames for their editing style. So it can seem to be a problem for them.

    It is easy to pick certain functions and say how much easier they are........ but if we look at an 2 extemely basic functions in Liquid and in MC. A function that is always used no matter which platform you are working on..... then MC is easier.

    That is marking a clip in the source monitor and moving it down onto the timeline either as a Splice-in or an overwrite!

    Splice-in in Liquid:

    1. Load your clip into the source monitor and mark your in and out points.

    2. Click on the button between the monitors to choose the FilmStyle (Yellow?)

    3. Click on the Insert arrow (or D&D to the timeline) Done.

    (NB. CLICKING on any button takes longer than hitting a key on the keyboard - If you can "touch-type" you just hit the key -  no need to look! As far as I know there is no such thing as "Touch-click on an on-screen button"! Geeked )

    Splice-in in MC (not getting tied up with the Smart Tool in MC5)

    1. Load your clip into the source monitor and mark your in and out points.

    2. Press the "V" key. Done

     

    Overwite in Liquid:

    1. Load your clip into the source monitor and mark your in and out points.

    2. Click on the button between the monitors to choose the OverwriteStyle (Red?)

    3. Click on the Insert arrow (or D&D to the timeline)

    OR another version of the same which can happen a lot

    1. Load your clip into the source monitor and mark your in and out points.

    2. Click on the insert arrow (or D&D to the timeline)

    3. Say, "Oh...No!" when you notice that you did a splice-in by mistake, as you had forgotten to change the Yellow button to a Red one)

    4. Click on the button between the monitors to choose the OverwriteStyle (Red?)

    5. Click on the Insert arrow (or D&D to the timeline) Done.

     

    Overwite in MC:

    1. Load your clip into the source monitor and mark your in and out points.

    2. Press the "B" key. Done

    --------------------------------------------------------------

    MC is MC, Liquid was Liquid

    Everyone is entitled to their opinions and I respect that right.
    But I feel that the ever repeated ,"In Liquid it was so easy......" that a few migrants keep coming up with is becoming tedious.
    This is the world of MC.

    Wrapping up, (or should that be rapping up? Geeked ) Liquid did have one great feature that MC does not have. A feature that has long been on the wishlist of MC users...... Background rendering.
    But that is another story . . . . .

    Liquid migrants feel free to blast me now........

    Regards,
    Douglas

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  • Tue, Jan 25 2011 10:32 AM In reply to

    • Mike Shaw
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    Re: Liquid and Drag & Drop

    Everything you say is correct Douglas - and only recently did someone post a reason for wanting to use the keyboard rather than the mouse (and a jog shuttle, in my case). That is to say, a reason apart from 'it's quicker'.  To me, editing is a creative process rather like doctoring a photograph - you wouldn't use a keyboard for that, I argued.  But it was pointed out that when fiddling with photos the point of interest is under the mouse pointer. With video editing the point(s) of interest are the viewer screens - and anything that takes your attention away from those is upsetting the flow. 'Mousing' to the timeline takes the attention away from the viewers.  The important thing when trimming (for example) is to watch the viewers, not the timeline.  Having to watch the mouse position detracts from that - I can understand that and it makes total sense, much to my chagrin.

    This pre-supposes one is or can become a 'touch typist'.  As a writer (and using the keyboard almost exclusively when word processing), you'd think I'd be at least a semi proficient touch typist after 60+ years at it.  Not so I'm afraid!.  I have to watch the keyboard as I type. And still hit the wrong keys (thank heaven for spell-checkers...). However, the argument for keyboard use over mouse use when video editing is convincing and to me extremely valid.  And so, I now have a bunch of key-sticker 'aids' stuck over the keyboard and am trying to drop the mouse habit.  Not easy - old habits die hard.

    Yes, Liquid had all the keyboard options that MC has.  Yes it did/does background rendering - and I find myself still (but less and less) forgetting to render in MC.  I think the effects list in Liquid was easier to navigate (seems to be a jumbled mess in MC to me - but I guess that's because MC uses two 'plug-in' packages for the effects).  I produced an alphabetic list of the actual effects and the 'folder' option where they could be found for this reason.  (And still have 'explored' only a handful of them!).  I think the way effects are applied to clips on tracks in Liquid - where one could re-order the effects and switch them on and off was better.  I think that the way one could select specific timeline tracks for viewing in Liquid was better (in MC its everything from the selected track down only - so one has to re-order tracks to see any particular one or more - or just 'switch one off)).  And so on - there are a number of things which I felt worked 'better' in Liquid.  But when it gets down to sheer capability overall - MC wins hands down.  For example, I love the fact that corner pinning is a feature of virtually all relevant effects, and not a separate plug-in (with no interpolated keyframes) as in Liquid.

    Yes I still have Liquid on my machine - because I have a number of films made for which I sometimes need to access the edits.  But it is rapidly becoming a dinosaur.  Four of us from one video club here - all with MC - got together for a day's 'note comparing'.  The day went extremely quickly, and I learned a heck of a lot. 

    I think we were upset because we were told, categorically in a very long speech that Liquid was being upgraded and renovated, and after a two year wait, were then told, Oh no. It's dead. Sorry ...  Fortunately Avid stepped up to the mark and made the outstanding offer.  I do not regret taking up that offer almost the day the it was made.  But I'm still learnin' !

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  • Tue, Jan 25 2011 1:04 PM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: Liquid and Drag & Drop

    Mike Shaw:
    I think we were upset because we were told, categorically in a very long speech that Liquid was being upgraded and renovated, and after a two year wait, were then told, Oh no. It's dead. Sorry ...  Fortunately Avid stepped up to the mark and made the outstanding offer.  I do not regret taking up that offer almost the day the it was made.

    Mike, I think that the small difference between you and I, is that I saw the writing on the wall back then when I listened to that very long speech in a posted video after the Liquid Immersion convention.
    At that convention attendees were offered that good deal on Liquid to MC. I was not in attendance, but thanks to Marianna I was allowed to take advantage of the offer through a friend who did attend, and was not taking advantage of the offer.
    You waited.... got disappointed..... but you saved a lot of dollars by waiting Stick out tongue compared to what I paid.

    Apart from that little difference I have seen from you many posts that you are doing your best to integrate into the community, just like I did.
    Believe you me that will pay dividends in the end.

    Regards,
    Douglas

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  • Tue, Jan 25 2011 1:31 PM In reply to

    Re: Liquid and Drag & Drop

    drbgaijin:
    In other threads I have read how much easier it is to do a FreezeFrame in Liquid than in MC. Good point. I agree it is much simpler.

    I would just like to point out that in addition to the traditional somewhat tedious way to create a freeze frame in MC, there is a faster alternative. With your clip already in the timeline that contains the frame you want to freeze, park the position bar on that frame, apply a timewarp effect, click the anchor button and set speed to zero. Done. When that clip plays, only that frame will be displayed.

     

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  • Tue, Jan 25 2011 1:54 PM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: Liquid and Drag & Drop

    Larry,

    Thank you for that explanation. As I said I am not one for needing that function, but I am glad to see that there is another way of achieving the effect, when needed.

    Your response reminds me of the debate that went on in the Liquid forum around the time of the 2nd migration.
    (Yep I think there have been 3 migrations in all!)

    I hope George (Sverkalo) does not mind me mentioning his name here. But I do it with all respect to him.

    Liquid's No.1 champion was George.
    When he had a chance to migrate he listed all of the reasons why he would never migrate to MC.
    He pointed out all the shortcomings of MC as compared to his beloved Liquid.
    Everything he claimed did not work or could not be done was shown to be wrong by another Liquid migrant (not myself) who had migrated to MC through his job a few years previously. That person knew both Liquid and MC inside out.
    He showed, bit by bit, that what George said could not be done in MC - could be done in MC.
    It was at that time that I began making my first 20 Tutorials.
    I started doing them in an effort to show Liquid users that MC could either do the things they were used to or even do them more efficiently in a different way .............

    Finally, as we all know now, George capitulated and migrated. He still has fond thoughts and words for his old Liquid, but now he champions MC. He could do this by accepting new thoughts and new workflows.

    Already a growing number of migrants have realised that life is rosier than they imagined with MC.
    Mike (above) is just one of this growing group. But to get there they had to change some of their old Liquid habits.

    Regards,
    Douglas

     

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  • Tue, Jan 25 2011 2:08 PM In reply to

    Re: Liquid and Drag & Drop

    Like I've said several times in other threads, the key to successfully migrating from one editing application to another is to keep an open mind and not be resistant to a different way of doing things. When I was learning FCP, I quickly realized that I was far more proficient when I stopped trying the force FCP to behave like Avid and embraced the way FCP did things instead.

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  • Fri, Feb 11 2011 3:29 PM In reply to

    • alan wells
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    Re: Liquid and Drag & Drop

    Gentlemen,

    Many (I for one) would not be MC users but for the special price that AVID created for us to enable us to migrate from Liquid. Whilst it seemed a good deal at the time (and it probably still is), it would appear that less-heavy users have 'bought a Jumbo jet to do domestic flying'.

    I have found that MC is very unforgiving, at times, and it is apparent that it was not designed with the casual user in mind. Liquid was!

    As a for example, about 10 days ago, we had a theft from our small licensed grocers but we have CCTV, 4 cameras that show different areas of the store. I was able to convert the downloaded file to .avi format but I wanted hard-copy photos of the incidents (12 people were involved in the theft).

    I uploaded AL7.2 from a 'pen drive' onto my computer, uploaded the .avi file, used the timeline snaphot feature about 18 times at different frames on the captured film, loaded the bit-map snapshots into my photo program, then did prints.

    I do not expect this feature to be included in MC as it would be seldom required by a Hollywood editor.

    I probably could have done all of the above in Pinnacle Studio 14 (which I also have) but it is hard enough learning(?) one editing appplication!

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  • Fri, Feb 11 2011 4:06 PM In reply to

    • Mike Shaw
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    Re: Liquid and Drag & Drop

    You're absolutely right  Alan - MC is a sledge-hammer for cracking peanuts as far as you and I are concerned.  I've been struggling with an edit for nearly a week now, which in Liquid I could have completed in an afternoon -If it had had MCs FX capabilities.  Even doing what could be regarded as 'standard' things I find myself scrabbling for the manual - what appeared to work OK last time I used MC doesn't seem to work this time, and so on.  And of course, getting to grips with the (for a newcomer, as I still am) Avid FX controls can be a real nightmare.  The tutorials of course each cover one aspect and finding the right buttons to push from the myriad on screen is not easy.  I have been able to do things which I couldn't do in Liquid - thanks to Douglas's tutorials, but even then, miss one step out - like forgetting to render - and you can sit looking at the screen wonderin what the heck has gone wrong.

    I needed a complex overlay over one part of the edit which was itself a farily complex composite.  After a few false attempts, I decided to do the overlay as a separate sequence and drop it in.  Would that work?  Not for me.  Lord knows what i didn't do right - so I then decided to export it as an AVI file and then bring it back in as a new clip.  Did that work? Not at first - all I got was a pure white video ... Reason... I forgot to render it.  Things you don't even have to think about in Liquid.

    It has re-inforced something which is being said repeatedly on this forum though - forget what you know about Liquid if you want to work in MC:  I now totally realise that the way effects work and are applied in MC is totally different to the way they work and are applied in Liquid, and expecting things to work the same way is going to cause grief.  The problem is, learning the MC way, which to me anyway, is totally non-intuitive.  And with so many control icons plastered all over the placer in the various effects editors (Boris and Avid FX - those editors are like variawtions of After Effects in themselves), finding the ones you want is not an easy task.

    So - I feel and can empathise with you, but nevertheless, because I want the things that MC can offer (more than its basic editing capabilities) I shall stick with it ... but secretly will sneak back to Liquid when I want a quick edit without all the gizmos...

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  • Fri, Feb 11 2011 6:13 PM In reply to

    Re: Liquid and Drag & Drop

    Mike Shaw:
    of course, getting to grips with the (for a newcomer, as I still am) Avid FX controls can be a real nightmare

    I've been using Avid products in some way or another for about 10 yrs or so now.  I think I've opened and attempted to use Avid FX (or Boris FX) maybe twice in that time.  I find that using After Effects and Photoshop works for me better.

    Also, many times I've used QTPro or MPEG StreamClip to get a freeze frame out of a wmv file.  You don't always need to use the "sledgehammer".  So, if Liquid works for some tasks better than MC, use it.  Integrate it into your arsenal, you don't have to be an all or nothing editor.  

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  • Fri, Feb 11 2011 6:51 PM In reply to

    • Mike Shaw
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    Re: Liquid and Drag & Drop

    Kenton:

    I've been using Avid products in some way or another for about 10 yrs or so now.  I think I've opened and attempted to use Avid FX (or Boris FX) maybe twice in that time.  I find that using After Effects and Photoshop works for me better. 

    There's a surprise!  I have a very early version of After Effects, but found it (like MC's effects) a bit complicated to use most of the time. I also prefer not to have to leave one programme to work in an other and import stuff back in.  Having SonicFire's Smart Sound QuickTracks integral with Liquid as a plugin was a distinct advantage (for me) when scoring, for that reason.

    Also, many times I've used QTPro or MPEG StreamClip to get a freeze frame out of a wmv file.  You don't always need to use the "sledgehammer".  So, if Liquid works for some tasks better than MC, use it.  Integrate it into your arsenal, you don't have to be an all or nothing editor.
     I don't have those programs - but the point is well made.  Use the tool that's right - and easiest - for the job in hand.  Sound advice. 

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  • Fri, Feb 11 2011 9:43 PM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: Liquid and Drag & Drop

    Mike Shaw:
    Use the tool that's right - and easiest - for the job in hand.  Sound advice. 

    A little addition to Kenton and Mike's advice...

    Use the tool that's right - and easiest - for the job in hand - but first check if you cannot actually do what you want in the one you are using. Normal users never really know the full capabilities of their software. Geeked

    Regards,
    Douglas

     

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  • Fri, Feb 11 2011 10:24 PM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: Liquid and Drag & Drop

    alan wells:
    I was able to convert the downloaded file to .avi format but I wanted hard-copy photos of the incidents

    Alan,
    I agree with you that using MC for this would be overkill in a big way.
    In fact, using Liquid is just as much overkill for this task.

    Hopefully you will never be in this situation again.
    But just incase you do need to grab a frame or two from a video file, apart from the many free programmes that will do this -  do a search for "Frameshots".
    I use that application from time to time , whenever I need a thumbnail from a video.

    Regards,
    Douglas

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  • Sat, Feb 12 2011 7:49 AM In reply to

    • alan wells
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    Re: Liquid and Drag & Drop

    Hello Douglas,

    and many thanks for your suggestion - brilliantSmile Never would have thought about 'googling' the word 'frameshots'. Just goes to show that there is more out there on the Net than I will ever know about because I don't know the correct words to search.

    Thanks again, Alan

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  • Sat, Feb 12 2011 9:06 AM In reply to

    Re: Liquid and Drag & Drop

    alan wells:

    uploaded the .avi file, used the timeline snaphot feature about 18 times at different frames on the captured film, loaded the bit-map snapshots into my photo program, then did prints.

    I do not expect this feature to be included in MC as it would be seldom required by a Hollywood editor.

    Load avi into Avid . Drop on clip on timeline. TPI over first desired frame. I key O key then File export  Select your saved Photoshop export template and export. One possibly 2 keystokes more than liiquid? But then you probably done need the O Key and you can map map Export to your KB.

    FWIW I did nearly 80 still like this for the local Mr Plod a month or so back. Add a batch file in Photoshop to deinterlace (as well as a NR and sharpen filter) them all in one go and it was a suprisingly quick job. As quick as a skilled Liquid user could do it the same job..... possibly not, but it was MUCH faster than I could have done it in Liquid Geeked

     

  • Sat, Feb 12 2011 9:47 AM In reply to

    • Mike Shaw
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    Re: Liquid and Drag & Drop

    ... and when you've done your 3 clicks instead of one (and selected 'File - Export' from the menu ... or spent time allocating an Export key...), do you then have to set the destination when you export (first time - the rest will use the same destination) and then another click to accept that as well - every time?  In Liquid you export the lot in one go.  Or, even quicker, simply 'XSend' them all en masse directly into the photo editor or the required location. There is no way anyone is going to convince me that MC is quicker at taking snapshots than Liquid - or Pinnacle Studio, for that matter.  Or the program Douglas suggested - probably the fastest method of all. 

    Three clicks instead of one - has to take times longer to do.  But it isn't a competition as to which is fastest, quickest, easiest.  It isn't even a case of 'please make x work like y. 

    It is a case of horses for courses.   Alan chose the program, he could do it fastest in.  I'd have done exactly the same.

    Yes, you can do it in MC.  He and I can do it faster in Liquid (and a pound to a pinch of snuff says probably much faster than you using MC).  And no doubt we could all do it even faster still in the program Douglas mentioned.

    Horses for courses.  MC does a heck of a lot that Liquid doesn't - or can't do.  But some things, a small handful of things, Liquid is better at, simply because it is simpler, and works differently.  Why knock that?

     

    MC6.0.3.2 Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R Rev2 MB, Intel i7-950 3.06Ghz, 12GB DDR3 1333Mhz RAM, 1x500GB, 3x1TB HDrives, 2+1TB Network drives, nVidia Quadro FX1800... [view my complete system specs]
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