Latest post Tue, Jan 4 2011 6:28 PM by MichaelP. 9 replies.
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  • Wed, May 19 2010 4:21 PM

    • smallIcons
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    23.976 XDCam in a 24p project

    Main project is 24p PAL version 3.5.9

    Source is telecined 35mm 24fps 2perf > 25fps digibeta

     

    Would like to include some XDCam EX material shot at "1080/24" (23.976)

    Any suggestions of workflow? Would ideally like to have the material in the main 24p project.

    Thx

    Andy

  • Sun, Nov 14 2010 9:29 PM In reply to

    • janusz
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    Re: 23.976 XDCam in a 24p project

    I have a similar and very related situation.  It is proposed to have the footage shot on an EX3 in 1080p23.976, for a subsequent shoot of the edited sequence to 35mm at 24fps.  As a result, I would like to keep my project in 24p as this is the final output frame rate.  If the sound is recorded with a sample rate of 47952Hz, it will remain in sync if interpreted as 48kHz, with the picture played at 24fps.

    The question is: is this possible with Avid? - can I have 23.976fps footage and have it interpreted as 24fps?  I certainly don't want any motion adapters appearing, as the frame rate is close enough that I can accept the 0.1% speedup rather than have a duplicate frame every 1000 frames - it will not be acceptable either to promote and manually set the rate ratio to 100% on all edited clips.

    Any ideas anyone?

    Janusz

     

    MC 2018.12 / OS 10.12.6 + others elsewhere [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Nov 16 2010 3:20 AM In reply to

    • MichaelP
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    Re: 23.976 XDCam in a 24p project

    Janusz - in your scenario, it is not an issue. Most, if not all 23.976 digtialy acquired films post as 23.976 even if there is an eventual film out at 24.000fps. That conversion steps happens at the very end of the process and it is a frame for frame conversion so there is no tweaking of frames. It is purely a plyaback speed. Audio will be adjusted accordingly as well.

    For PAL, it is a different issue integrating 23.976 into a PAL 24. There is no 1:1 interopolation yet for that in MC. You can play with some export/import tricks if you don't want to deal with the frame rate mix and match. Perhaps Job will jump in with some ideas as well.

     

    Michael

    24p.com

  • Tue, Nov 16 2010 11:27 AM In reply to

    • janusz
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    Re: 23.976 XDCam in a 24p project

    Thanks Michael for your info.

    So just to be clear, in my situation where there is only digitally acquired footage, I should go for a project at 23.976fps and have sound recorded at 48kHz, and at the end I'll produce a tga sequence for the shoot.  It is therefore during the mix, that frame rate change to 24.0fps takes place for the sound.  Is this a simple operation for the mixers?  (not knowing personally Protools or Pyramix)

    [Feature request :) ] It is a pity that there is no means to go directly into a 24fps project with a 1:1 frame ratio with media accessed with AMA. With imported QT media there is the IgnoreQTRate command which enables this functionality.  Especially as MC handles 1:1 sample import for sound at 47952Hz with a 48kHz project.   Were the 0.1% speedup for 23.976fps AMA media to be possible, this would simplify the workflow with everything at the correct rate from the start, no conversions, and would allow integration with true 24fps media as in the original poster's case.

    Janusz

     

    MC 2018.12 / OS 10.12.6 + others elsewhere [view my complete system specs]
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  • Tue, Nov 16 2010 11:44 AM In reply to

    Re: 23.976 XDCam in a 24p project

    janusz:
    Is this a simple operation for the mixers?

    AFAIK, yes. And when doing a Dolby master, I think the DMU allows for that conversion to take place there.

     

    Media Composer /w Symphony option | PT-HD | Win7Pro64 HP | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 | Nitris DX | Artist Mix & Transport & Color | AJA T-Tap | Decklink... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Nov 16 2010 11:57 AM In reply to

    • MichaelP
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    Re: 23.976 XDCam in a 24p project

    In NTSC land you have to have a conversion somewhere in the process. Where theatrical and DCI for Digtial CInema work at 24.000fps, HD, SD deliverables for broadcast, DVD ext are 23.976 (or converted 29.97). So at some point there will be pullup or pulldown on sound with samole rate conversion happening. The goal is to minimize the number of times this happens in the process - so stay 23.976/48kHz all the way to your master audio stems, or 24.000/48kHz to the master stems.

    And I agree that it would be great to have the option to have sources play at 1:1 (frame for frame) from any frame rate to any frame rate and have audio sample rate convert on the fly as needed. This is in the backlog for a future release, but cannot speak to if and when.

     

    Michael

    24p.com

  • Fri, Dec 17 2010 6:49 PM In reply to

    • lgabiot
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    Re: 23.976 XDCam in a 24p project

    [Feature request :) ] It is a pity that there is no means to go directly into a 24fps project with a 1:1 frame ratio with media accessed with AMA. With imported QT media there is the IgnoreQTRate command which enables this functionality.  Especially as MC handles 1:1 sample import for sound at 47952Hz with a 48kHz project.   Were the 0.1% speedup for 23.976fps AMA media to be possible, this would simplify the workflow with everything at the correct rate from the start, no conversions, and would allow integration with true 24fps media as in the original poster's case.

    And I agree that it would be great to have the option to have sources play at 1:1 (frame for frame) from any frame rate to any frame rate and have audio sample rate convert on the fly as needed. This is in the backlog for a future release, but cannot speak to if and when.

     

    Coming back to this subject, (I posted something similar a while ago), I try to have more informations.

     

    So, If I understand well, so far there is no way to import 23,976 rush into a 24p PAL project and considering it a 24 FPS rush (1:1 images but 1:1000 accelerated)?

    Execpt for Qt files thru AMA with the ignoreQtrate thing?

    Isn't there a way to alter the metadata of the rushes prior to the AVID import, so that the 23,976 metadata is replaced by 24?
    (a cheat that would work at least for the video part, the audio would need to be recorded at 47952 and played back at 48000).

    And Mickael, you are an official at AVID right? (I'm new to the forum, so I may be mistaken).

     

    Best regards,

     

    Laurent.

  • Sat, Dec 18 2010 6:59 PM In reply to

    • MichaelP
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    Re: 23.976 XDCam in a 24p project

    lgabiot:
    And Mickael, you are an official at AVID right? (I'm new to the forum, so I may be mistaken).

     

    I do work at Avid... officially. Smile

     

    Michael

    24p.com

  • Tue, Jan 4 2011 6:19 PM In reply to

    Re: 23.976 XDCam in a 24p project

    MichaelP:
    ...

    And I agree that it would be great to have the option to have sources play at 1:1 (frame for frame) from any frame rate to any frame rate and have audio sample rate convert on the fly as needed. This is in the backlog for a future release, but cannot speak to if and when.

     

    Michael

     

    Isn't this what Symphony's Universal Mastering does? (I could be mistaken of course.)

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Tue, Jan 4 2011 6:28 PM In reply to

    • MichaelP
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    Re: 23.976 XDCam in a 24p project

    I was referring to the mix & match feature during editorial, and not final output of a sequence which are two different scenarios. Symphony's Universal Mastering does this in SD for PAL and NTSC outputs from 23.976, 24, and 25 progressive type projects as a "frame for frame" (duration of program will change by .1%, 4%, and 4.1%).

     

    Michael

    24p.com

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