Hi everyone, happy new year!

I'm having a hard time understanding how to export a project edited with the latest version of Media Composer 2022.12, color space in project settings is set to YCbCr 709 (FX6 UHD footage)

When I export, there's no option to export to YCbCr 709 color space

the export window states that the project color space is Rec.709,

so I choose Rec 709 as an output color space, (UHD, Keep as legal range, Apple Prores 422 HQ, 12 bit - I did try 10 bit with the same result)

but the colors in the resulting export look more contrasted,

and I would like to keep the exact same "look" that I see in Avid.

The closest result to what I see in Avid is when I export to "Rec 709 Gamma PQ" but it still is slightly off, this time on the contrary a bit de-contrasted.

I'm using an Eizo 4K calibrated monitor so I can already tell the difference, and then playing the resulting file on any other recent Apple P3 display the difference is even more obvious.

Anyone could please help me understand what I am doing wrong and how to achieve the same look when I export?

Thank you very much in avance for your answers!

Have you tried exporting as full range instead of keep as legal range? I believe Apple ProRes maynot obey the flagging to show its legal levels.

Pat Horridge:

Have you tried exporting as full range instead of keep as legal range? I believe Apple ProRes maynot obey the flagging to show its legal levels.

Hi Pat!

Thank you for your reply!

I did, but the result is worse, even more contrasted...:/

Quicktime file?

Welcome to Quicktime gamma hell.

Try a different software to playback the file (i.e. VLC). Did you try AMA'ing it back in to Avid and checking the levels?

Dom Q. Silverio:

Quicktime file?

Welcome to Quicktime gamma hell.

 

Try a different software to playback the file (i.e. VLC). Did you try AMA'ing it back in to Avid and checking the levels?

 

Hi!

Quicktime indeed Actually now you just reminded me about that Quicktime Gamma hell, I completely forgot about that.

There are not much option in the export window, and the intention is to encode the resulting file to a Vimeo 4K file with Adobe Media Encoder (which follows Vimeo specifications and allows for finer tuning/endoding)

Before that, which codec/format would you suggest me to export to from Avid MC?

It is not a codec issue but how Quicktime writes and reads the gamma metadata (along with applications that support Quicktime). If you can work with MXF then you are better off. If not then you will need to play Russian Roulette that is QT Gamma. If you can use H264/265, then MP4 can also work.

Dom Q. Silverio:

It is not a codec issue but how Quicktime writes and reads the gamma metadata (along with applications that support Quicktime). If you can work with MXF then you are better off. If not then you will need to play Russian Roulette that is QT Gamma. If you can use H264/265, then MP4 can also work.

 

Thank you for your answers! I just tried MP4/H265 and it gives me the same results as MOV. The only MXF option I have in the Export window is MXFOP1a, and it does not allow for choosing the output color space. When I try that I get the same resluts as if it scaled from legal to Full range (more contrasted). [:'(]

What/how do you feed the Eizo monitor? From the graphics card or via a video output device?

knejmann:

What/how do you feed the Eizo monitor? From the graphics card or via a video output device?

Hi!

I do feed it directly from the Quadro P2200 through Displayport with 10bit display enabled in Nvidia drivers/windows settings. Is that wrong somehow or should I use a different video output?

Hi,

It's generally said, that you get more consistent results with a dedicated video output - like a Blackmagic Declink or similar device. The problem (one of them at least) with using a graphics card output is that different drivers and the OS can "tweak" the output.

I don't know how your monitor is calibrated but it might expect a full range input. Try this: Right click in your record monitor and choose --> Display Color Space. It's set to Project as default but try to change it to Rec. 708 [full range].

Then you might have to find some test images - like a B/W ramp or the SMPTE(?) one that has a -3% patch and a +2% patch (if I recall correctly) and see if the image looks correct - like not displaying details below 0% etc. 

There is a Display Color Space setting for full screeen playback too somewhere in the settings.

What Kåre says. You have probably been looking at the Source/Record monitors (or Full Screen Display) inside MC; all of which default to "Project", which assumes that your computer monitors match the Project's color space -- which they normally don't, unless you specifically calibrate them to Rec709.

MC does offer some LUTs, so you can better match the Source/Record Monitors and/or Full Screen Display to what the end result will actually look like.

Nothing wrong with the export, and I bet the issue at hand is not a gamma or QT issue at all -- other than that most software players will add a LUT to any properly flagged Rec709 ProRes and add a display LUT to it.

Meaning: you have been watching a washed out (lower contast) version of your footage in MC. You then exported properly, then play back the result, which then gets properly "corrected".

Job ter Burg:

What Kåre says. You have probably been looking at the Source/Record monitors (or Full Screen Display) inside MC; all of which default to "Project", which assumes that your computer monitors match the Project's color space -- which they normally don't, unless you specifically calibrate them to Rec709.

MC does offer some LUTs, so you can better match the Source/Record Monitors and/or Full Screen Display to what the end result will actually look like.

Nothing wrong with the export, and I bet the issue at hand is not a gamma or QT issue at all -- other than that most software players will add a LUT to any properly flagged Rec709 ProRes and add a display LUT to it.

Meaning: you have been watching a washed out (lower contast) version of your footage in MC. You then exported properly, then play back the result, which then gets properly "corrected".

Thank you both Kåre and Job for your input. Totally makes sense! My Eizo monitor was indeed self calibrating and thus displaying in its own "mode". I thought it would offer the same result inside or outside Avid. It does offer several calibration options though, including Rec709. I guess you would recommend setting it to it?

The monitors would then need to be set to specifically Rec 709 'legal' or 'studio swing', as opposed to 'full range' or 'full swing'. Setting your monitors to that would also affect the way the UI (and everything else on your computer) will be displayed. *)

Most people use an outboard Rec 709 monitor or TV (via SDI or HDMI). Many also use the LUTs inside MC to adjust the Source/Record Monitors and Full Screen Display, to get much closer to what the final result would look like.

*) Rec 709 legal / studio swing is the default color space for traditional video (and television). Unlike computer monitors, which use the full range of the luminance spectrum, Rec 709 legal has some headroom and footroom. Full black on a computer monitor is usually defined as luminance value '0' (in 8 bit), whereas video black in Rec 709 legal is defined as '16' (meaning it would look quite gray on a computer monitor). Full white on a computer monitor would be '255', whereas it is '235' in Rec 709 legal (which would then look less bright on a computer monitor). If you were to use the full luminance range inside a Rec 709 legal project (which you can, but the values would be 'illegal'), anything below 16 or over 235 would not be properly displayed when played back in a correctly set-up environment, so many dark grays would be crushed to black and many highlight details would be clipped.

Job ter Burg:

It would need to be set to specifically Rec 709 'legal' or 'studio swing', as opposed to 'full range' or 'full swing'. Setting your monitors to that would also affect the way the UI (and everything else on your computer) will be displayed. *)

Most people use an outboard Rec 709 monitor or TV (via SDI or HDMI). Many also use the LUTs inside MC to adjust the Source/Record Monitors and Full Screen Display, to get much closer to what the final result would look like.

 

*) Rec 709 legal / studio swing is the default color space for traditional video (and television). Unlike computer monitors, which use the full range of the luminance spectrum, Rec 709 legal has some headroom and footroom. Full black on a computer monitor is usually defined as luminance value '0' (in 8 bit), whereas video black in Rec 709 legal is defined as '16' (meaning it would look quite gray on a computer monitor). Full white on a computer monitor would be '255', whereas it is '235' in Rec 709 legal (which would then look less bright on a computer monitor). If you were to use the full luminance range inside a Rec 709 legal project (which you can, but the values would be 'illegal'), anything below 16 or over 235 would not be properly displayed when played back in a correctly set-up environment, so many dark grays would be crushed to black and many highlight details would be clipped.

Thank you so much Job. I'll try to dive deeper into the Eizo settings (CG248-4K) to see if it does in fact offer Rec 709 legal but I guess it offers the full range indeed. I'm unortunately not using any video dedicated monitor on this setup but I'll try to get as close as I can to the desired result. Thank you very much both you and Kare :)