Latest post Sat, Jan 20 2018 3:25 PM by SR555. 30 replies.
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  • Mon, Jan 8 2018 5:49 PM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: Best way to handle this interlacing issue?

    Thanks

    No luck.  Selecting the item and the sequence in the bin and choosing the option Relink> selected items in open bins. I can AMA the new clips themselves in a bin, and they come online, but they won't connect to the old clips or to the sequence. The duration and metadata and file path are the same between the new and old clips.  Only thing that has changed is the file format and extension.

    It says, 'no clips were relinked.'

    No similar option when ctl-clicking in the sequence itself.


    Could it be because they are h264 files?  Perhaps it would be friendlier to another format?   Or is it just not possible to replace the source media with a different file format of any kind?

    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Jan 9 2018 8:09 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: Best way to handle this interlacing issue?

    The whole relink menu is - while very powerful - less than friendly.

    You need to things to match in the dance.  TC and one of many metadata.  Could be clip name, or file name or something else.

    So it can be a challenge to figure out what the clips are called in the sequence and what your newfiles are called in a manner that will match.

    Then there is the ability to use the Original and Target menu.

    Don't know if fiddling with that will help you.

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC 8.5.3 / 8.9.4 | OS 10.11.x - various MacPro Towers - home system MacPro Dual 2.8 8core GTX680 "Harpertown" QT 10.0... [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

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    Old Stuff  http://vimeo.com/album/3037796

  • Tue, Jan 9 2018 9:01 PM In reply to

    Re: Best way to handle this interlacing issue?

    SR555:

    Thanks

    No luck.  Selecting the item and the sequence in the bin and choosing the option Relink> selected items in open bins. I can AMA the new clips themselves in a bin, and they come online, but they won't connect to the old clips or to the sequence. The duration and metadata and file path are the same between the new and old clips.  Only thing that has changed is the file format and extension.

    It says, 'no clips were relinked.'

    No similar option when ctl-clicking in the sequence itself.


    Could it be because they are h264 files?  Perhaps it would be friendlier to another format?   Or is it just not possible to replace the source media with a different file format of any kind?

     

    You won't get the old clips to relink but the sequence should if you get all the options right. And as said that can be a dance.

     

    ACI Moderator. I'm not employed by Avid or work for them. I just do this in my spare time. Symphony V8.6 / 8.3.1 HP Z400 system [view my complete system specs]

     

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  • Tue, Jan 9 2018 9:16 PM In reply to

    Re: Best way to handle this interlacing issue?

    SR555:
    My patience is growng very thin for the wasted time on this project.  I am trying to love Avid because everyone else does, but it's making it very hard to do.

    As you said earlier:

    SR555:
    If it's not handled properly at the outset, well... here we are.

    With a large project like you've described in this thread and the others you've started over the last couple of months, having a plan for how you're going to get material into the system, and how you're going to get your finished seqeunce back out are critically important.

    Sorry to state the obvious.

    Media Composer 2018.1 w/Symphony option, HP Envy 17t-j100 Quad Edition laptop, Windows 10 Pro, Intel Core i7 2.4GHz, 16 GB RAM, nVidia GeForce GT 740M [view my complete system specs]

    "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who only consider the price are this man's lawful prey."  - John Ruskin (1819-1900)

     

    Carl Amoscato | Freelance Film & Video Editor | London, UK

  • Thu, Jan 11 2018 6:16 AM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: Best way to handle this interlacing issue?

    Yep pretty much.

    Haven't forgotten you guys - I'm still working to get this online and ready for output.  In between three different times where I spend hours relinking, adjusting the source settings and reformatting - then I walk away, come back and the whole thing is offline again.  Then it crashes.  Then that whole dance starts again.

    When it does work, there are interlacing artifacts intermittently throughout.

    On the good news front, I was able to get files to relink - also to the H264s, although I didn't need to use them because ended up transcoding the source files to Avid DV after reading that that was a good way to retain good quality. Although I am concerned now about having possibly introduced a field order issue as a result since it's lower field first.  There was a horrendous flicker in the most recent DVD test burn.  (These source files were mpeg2s/VOBs, they had to be transcoded to get AMA to recognize them so I had initially made them into motion jpegs.)

    Apparently the files didn't want to link from the relink bin, the one I had to 'show reference files."  But when the original bins were opened (about 25 of them) I was able to link the files and bring them back online in their original bins (for a time). The upside of this relinking nightmare is that,well, i'm getting pretty good at relinking.

    Any way you slice it, so far there have been interlacing artifacts in the final product, every export, every test, except one. It's really maddening. If this next mixdown doesn't work, I'm going to go in and deinterlace the source files outside of Avid (another 18-hour process) and just relink and move forward that way.

    Jef I may take you up on your offer to send a clip soon if this isn't solved - even if it's after this project ends - so that I can truly get a handle on the issue because surely it will come up in the future.

    At some point this monstrosity needs to end.  I really appreciate that you guys have taken time out of your day to respond, and it's been invaluable in moving this forward.

    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Jan 11 2018 10:49 AM In reply to

    • luca.mg
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    Re: Best way to handle this interlacing issue?

    SR555:
    ...ended up transcoding the source files to Avid DV... ...I am concerned now about having possibly introduced a field order issue as a result since it's lower field first.

    That's a part of the problem IMHO; please also consider that DV it's a 5:1 compression, not the best quality available, depending on the final compression ratio of the target DVD. Don't know how compressed are the LaserDisks, but I'd go for 2:1 (or at least 3:1) to have upper field first.

    MC 8.9.4, BM Intensity Pro 4k, Windows 10, i7-5930K, 32 GB ram, Quadro K620 [view my complete system specs]

    peace luca

  • Thu, Jan 11 2018 10:54 AM In reply to

    • luca.mg
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    Re: Best way to handle this interlacing issue?

    luca.mg:
    Don't know how compressed are the LaserDisks

    Sorry, I've re-read the thread and realised You're not the one having issues with LaserDisk sources, there's another discussion about that somewhere else over the forums; whatever the source still the 3:1 or 2:1 suggestion applies.

    MC 8.9.4, BM Intensity Pro 4k, Windows 10, i7-5930K, 32 GB ram, Quadro K620 [view my complete system specs]

    peace luca

  • Thu, Jan 11 2018 2:43 PM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: Best way to handle this interlacing issue?

     Thanks Luca. The sources are VOBs/mpeg2s ripped from DVDs.

    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Jan 14 2018 9:09 PM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: Best way to handle this interlacing issue?

    I could have sworn I posted an update back here - but maybe started it and got interrupted.

    Yeah definitely not friendly.  I have managed to make it work.   Things are relinking finally.

    So here's what I did that worked:

    Switched the project format to SD, exported the track 720x486, 1:1, and in the quicktime settings 720x486 ntsci , leaving deinterlacing unchecked.

    Then switched the project format to 720p,and AMA'd the file back in on its own track, the interlace lines are gone.   I did notice in the source settings for the AMA'd file that they were set to progressive, while the reformat column was set to interlaced, and it was working so I left it as is but will test it to see if there is a difference.

    Also, I wasn't able to get rid of the interlace lines doing any kind of mixdown with any settings, but exporting the track straight out without mixing down, worked.  It was of course interlaced, but deinterlaced properly when brought back into the project.

    There is another issue going on now regarding color saturation, but I will post that in its own thread.

    Thank you SO much all of you for your assistance in moving this forward. This should be done within the next day or two - I will post an update when it is.   And then I will celebrate.   

    Cheers =)

     

    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Jan 14 2018 9:38 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: Best way to handle this interlacing issue?

    Well congrats.  I think.  But I went back to the top of this thread because something was bugging me.  You said this project is going to DVD.

    If so, why are you upconverting to 720p?  DVD is 720x480.  Did you really mean to write BluRay?  And if so why when normal DVD would provide the best quality.

    I feel I missed something along this long, twisting road.

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC 8.5.3 / 8.9.4 | OS 10.11.x - various MacPro Towers - home system MacPro Dual 2.8 8core GTX680 "Harpertown" QT 10.0... [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

    Old Stuff  http://vimeo.com/album/3037796

  • Mon, Jan 15 2018 12:41 AM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: Best way to handle this interlacing issue?

    Hi Jef,

    I went to 720p because there were some HD files in it - but not very many.  And because it would be watched on a larger screen.  Also because it she also wants digital files.  But you're right, in retrospect it may have made sense to just work in 720x480.  I just thought in the end it would be better quality to work in an HD file, and downsize it for the dvd,  and it would probably be viewed on large screens.  Perhaps that was incorrect.

    If I reformatted the HD files, just swtiched it to 720x480 16x9, and outputted it that way, since the vast majority of it is SD, would that make more sense?   I did notice the reimported video seems soft and there's not really time to work with up ressing it. 

    About half the material is progressive and half is interlaced.   If going to DVD straight from a 720 project, what would be the proper way to handle the interlacing?

     

    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Jan 15 2018 3:18 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: Best way to handle this interlacing issue?

    If you are doing normal DVDs - NOT Bluray, you are negatively impacting the majority of your footage.  Think about it.  You are upconverting SD into HD (720p) and then downconverting back to SD for the DVD encode.  These are not 0 sum steps.  The upconvert is creating info that was never there.  The downconvert is getting rid of info.

    SR555:

    If I reformatted the HD files, just swtiched it to 720x480 16x9, and outputted it that way, since the vast majority of it is SD, would that make more sense?

    Yes.  Without question.

    The next big issue is the settings for the MPEG encode.  Those are critical as well.

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC 8.5.3 / 8.9.4 | OS 10.11.x - various MacPro Towers - home system MacPro Dual 2.8 8core GTX680 "Harpertown" QT 10.0... [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

    Old Stuff  http://vimeo.com/album/3037796

  • Tue, Jan 16 2018 6:37 PM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: Best way to handle this interlacing issue?

    Jef what do I need to know regarding mpeg settings when Avid DV (lower field) was used in the project?

    Doing tests now for SD project instead.

    It won't send out a QTref if there are AMA'd clips, and any attempt to mix down creates interlacing artifacts in the areas with motion effects.  The only thing that really worked to deinterlace was to 1-1 out the SD, then bring it in to the 720p project, but the footage then was too soft.  Straight out from SD does look clearer.

    I tried to output a straight quicktime without a mixdown (other than audio) and get the spinning beach ball of death.

    Update

    A few issues still:

    -- Having issues with occasional stair stepping and a few clips with flickering diagonals (in both the HD and SD project).

    -- Some of my reds and pinks are super-glowy-bright compared to the other colors in the scene.

    -- I also have Avid DV clips AMA'd in along with other formats that are upper field.  Maybe that wasn't such a good idea, I"m getting "tearing" in the final file and have to hunt down the cause.

    -- Now that I'm in an SD project, it's notable that the interlacing artifacts happening appear to be Timewarp-related:  in slow motion it happens (clips in question are 30 or 40%).  However, in fast motion (300-400%) the clip is clean.  All the clips had steady movement in the original shot - one on a rollercoaster, one surfing, one panning a sunset etc. I have checked the source settings and they are correct. These are showing up after a DVD burn, not just in quicktime.  The other areas of the DVD are (so far in the review) appropriately deinterlaced.  It just won't handle the slow motion clips.  I tried outputting the clips several ways from Avid so they could be re-imported but without changing to the HD project, it won't deinterlace them.

    This test is from a  mixdown, and exported via quicktime reference, then brought into Adobe Media Encoder (Compressor encodes a white screen, and Sorenson crashes every single time with an error halfway into the encode).

     

    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Jan 20 2018 5:37 AM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: Best way to handle this interlacing issue?

    ^^^ update ^^^

    Bump...

    =)  

    It's looking better but still some issues

    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Jan 20 2018 2:07 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: Best way to handle this interlacing issue?

    Ok, a couple of comments.  First, these are not intended as disparaging.  I do not know your background.  I don't know what gear you have.  These are just my views based on 30 some years in this business.

    First - Video is complicated.  Very complicated.  The issues you are dealing with took me years to learn and understand how to handle.  There are no easy solutions.  Just workflows based on lots of experience with problems, making mistakes, experimenting, asking others for help, working with mentors of great experience and long, painful hours. A project like yours is a perfect way to learn these things.  But a deadline makes the process much more stressfull.

    Second - You need a trust worthy set of viewing tools to work with interlace material.  This means an IO device such as AJA or Blackmagic feeding a monitor that can truly show you fields.  Without this work setup you will waste hours. This is especially important on SD projects.  And to work on SD, you REALLY should be using an SD monitor.  A good old CRT.  Why?  Because if you send SD to an HD monitor, the HD monitor has to do SOMETHING to be able to play it.  If it upconverts it, how good is the upconvert?  How is that process handling fields?  Because the world has moved to HD, dealing with SD has gotten much harder to do well. 

    Third - You are confusing various issues with each other.  Slow motion for example.  There is no such thing as a free lunch here.  Slow motion is all about repeating frames / fields. Avid gives you many different motion interpolation settings to handle this reality.  You have to experiment with all of them to find a good compromise for each shot.  To know what is really happening, see my second point.

    Fourth - You keep mentioning deinterlaceing.  DVD handles interlace properly.  It is up to the person doing the encode to get all the settings proper.  And know that if you have a project in Avid that looks good and your whole workflow is proper, it will look good on DVD.  There are many traps along that road.  

    BUT - if you look at a DVD which has interlace material (which is perfectly fine for viewing on a interlace savy monitor) on a computer screen, it will look bad.  Computer screens do not handle interlace properly.  And this goes to the issue of project design.  Or as I say, "Start at the end and work backwards."  How will a viewer be watching a program?  That drives many decisions and has to be sorted out as step 1 in any project.

    And as been mentioned before ( I think ) in this thread, deinterlacing is not a great process.  There are lots of different methods.  But most lose some resolution (sharpness) in the process.  A whole subject on it's own.

    Fifth - All the questions you asked have many possible answers.  And without seeing the material on a proper setup (see second comment again) anyone is just guessing about a solution.  I guess what I am saying is that many of your question do not have simple answers.  You have seen that.  And the good people on this list can only offer so much of there time and energy.

    If you do not have a hard deadline, then keep on plugging away.  You will learn a lot.  But if you have to deliver a product to a paying client, you made need to enlist professional help.

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC 8.5.3 / 8.9.4 | OS 10.11.x - various MacPro Towers - home system MacPro Dual 2.8 8core GTX680 "Harpertown" QT 10.0... [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

    Old Stuff  http://vimeo.com/album/3037796

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