Latest post Tue, Nov 29 2016 12:07 AM by Mondo. 13 replies.
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  • Tue, Nov 22 2016 7:50 PM

    Rendering Issues.

    Hey Everyone,

     

    I have a mac and I have linked my media to avid, it hasn't been converted to an mxf or anything just straight into avid via linking media.

     

    I have finished my product and I want the best quality ( not caring about size)  My theory is that since youtube compresses the heck out of anything, if I render the best quality version ill get more bang for my buck.

    So I render a Proress 4444 and it looks good on the computer.

    When I go onto youtube with it it looks very blocky. here is the video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTCrRwwvdRU

     

     

    This has been asked before and I am truly sorry but I just dont understand.


    To get the best youtube quality i've been told to render same as source and then go into media encoder and render again using h.264.. But what I don't get is that why would I render twice? that second render takes down quality again. and Since we are in 2016 now youtube actually takes bigger files. I would like to render once out of media composer and be done with it..

     

    For some reason when I do render same as source I get the message saying that  no same as source resolution exists and it will render what ever the media creation tab has set. probably because i have the files linked right?

    should I always have them transcoded by avid and never link? I thought linking would leave the quality exactly the same from on the camera.

     

    Essentially my question is. What is the best render setting that youtube wont crap all over. If pro res 4444 isn't doing the trick what will?

     

    Will converting my timeline into an mxf and then rendering with what you guys suggest give me a better youtube quality?

     

    sorry for the long message.

    Thank you I would greatly appreciate it

  • Tue, Nov 22 2016 8:02 PM In reply to

    • Tom Pearson
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    Re: Rendering Issues.

    First off rendering is not compressing so a rendered file is not a loss of quality. Rendering just writes the file with the edits and processes you wanted.  So that  being said do a quick time ref of the time line then open sorrenson and encode it for Youtube... They have a preset for that . Dont expect Youtube to do a good job encoding . there goal is to compress as small as poss...

    Mac Pro 3.5 gig 6 core 64 gig ram D700 radons with ssd os drive with a 20 tb raid, Artist Mix and Artist color Artist control [view my complete system specs]

    Tom Pearson

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  • Tue, Nov 22 2016 8:27 PM In reply to

    Re: Rendering Issues.

    Thanks for the quick response!

     

    I just tried a quick time reference and it says it cannot be done with linked or ama footage

     

     

  • Tue, Nov 22 2016 9:03 PM In reply to

    • Tom Pearson
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    Re: Rendering Issues.

    transcode first to avid DNxHD codec and then send to qt ref

    Mac Pro 3.5 gig 6 core 64 gig ram D700 radons with ssd os drive with a 20 tb raid, Artist Mix and Artist color Artist control [view my complete system specs]

    Tom Pearson

    Director/Writer Big Picture Films

    Sound Designer/Sound Editor Hollywood Sounds

    WWLD

  • Tue, Nov 22 2016 9:43 PM In reply to

    Re: Rendering Issues.

    ah okay thank you. is there a way to transcode even though everything is linked to media and on my timeline?

  • Wed, Nov 23 2016 8:13 PM In reply to

    Re: Rendering Issues.

    Select the sequence in the bin and transcode. Or do a video mixdown and overwrite it on to a copy of the sequence. SAS then works. Or investigate AMA File export/MXF OP1a (a wonderful trick pointed out by Michael Phillips). No rendering. Everything exports.

    iMac i5 27", 24GB RAM, OS 10.13.6 with Symphony 2018.12, BlackMagic mini monitor. MacBook Pro, 16GB RAM with OS 10.13.6 with MC 2018.5 and BMD Ultrastudio... [view my complete system specs]

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  • Thu, Nov 24 2016 3:11 AM In reply to

    • Mondo
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    Re: Rendering Issues.

    Tom Pearson:
    First off rendering is not compressing so a rendered file is not a loss of quality. Rendering just writes the file with the edits and processes you wanted.

    That is only partially correct. If you have a linked sequence with media in a bunch of different formats and you transcode or mixdown to DNxHD then you are rendering it to that format and re-compressing thee original files, albeit at a larger data rate it still involves a re-compression process and inherent generation loss (minimal - so I wouldn't worry about it.) The only time you are not compressing is when you have a format that Avid recognises natively (ProRes, DNx, XDCam etc) and you consolidate it.

    To the OP - do what Tom said and transcode or mixdown (faster) your sequence and QTRef it to a proper media encoder like Sorenson or Adobe. As you've already exported a PRoRes HQ file you could just send that to AME or Sorenson and use the high quality MP4 YOuTube presets.

    And one final point - rendering to ProRes HQ 4444 is silly unless your footage was shot with all those extra bits. If you have 10 bit footage then rendering to a 10bit codec is sufficient. If you have 8bit footage then rendering to 10 bit master may have some advantage to avoid precision errors on colour corrections etc.. ProRes 4444 is intended for high end colour grading work and graphics.

    HP Z820 16GB RAM Winx64Pro SP1/Xeon 2620 x 2/Quadro 4000 NitrisDX, Fiber client Unity client 5.3 Build 15440, 4 bay SSD dock (Addonics) Custom build: Asus... [view my complete system specs]

    John

    Can we go back to the way audio nodes used to be selected? Please? ie if you have audio nodes at the same time on selected tracks; then selecting 1 audio node selects them all at that time. Having to shift select nodes or add an in and out is time consuming and counter productive. At least make it an option.

  • Thu, Nov 24 2016 3:44 AM In reply to

    Re: Rendering Issues.

    Ok I right clicked on sequence and transcoded it to 1:1 now I will Bring that to sorenson 

  • Fri, Nov 25 2016 3:35 AM In reply to

    • Mondo
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    Re: Rendering Issues.

    beetlejuice26:

    Ok I right clicked on sequence and transcoded it to 1:1 now I will Bring that to sorenson 

    Why 1:1? That is an old Meridien codec designed primarlily for standard definition. Please use DNxHD at the right frame rate for your timeline and an appropriate resolution and data rate. eg 1080P23.976 175x would be 1920 x 1080 pixels @ a frame rate of 23.976 Progressive and a data rate of 175Mb/s and 10bit (thats what the little x means). Substitute your frame rates and raster sizes to suit.

     

    HP Z820 16GB RAM Winx64Pro SP1/Xeon 2620 x 2/Quadro 4000 NitrisDX, Fiber client Unity client 5.3 Build 15440, 4 bay SSD dock (Addonics) Custom build: Asus... [view my complete system specs]

    John

    Can we go back to the way audio nodes used to be selected? Please? ie if you have audio nodes at the same time on selected tracks; then selecting 1 audio node selects them all at that time. Having to shift select nodes or add an in and out is time consuming and counter productive. At least make it an option.

  • Fri, Nov 25 2016 7:49 AM In reply to

    Re: Rendering Issues.

    Right sorry,

     

    What's the point of transcoding the media in avid to an mxf when you can link the footage like I did?

     

    Is there a better quality output for the web?

     

    I am rendering it in dnxhd 175x right now and I just did a pro ress 422 hq..

     

    going to compare the two on youtube.

     

  • Fri, Nov 25 2016 1:48 PM In reply to

    Re: Rendering Issues.

    The point of consolidating or transcoding is to get your media into Avid-native MXF files.  This means the software will perform better as you edit, and it also allows you to export a QuickTime Reference of your sequence.  Or, it's a faster path to a same as source QT movie of your sequence, if you choose to go that way.

    Note that to "consolidate" is to create Avid MXF media from files that are ALREADY in Avid-native formats.  So if you have ProRes or DNxHD/DNxHR MOV files, for example - or you're working with Sony XDCamEX/XDCamHD media, or a few other formats, once you link them, you can consolidate if you choose - which simply re-wraps the original media into new MXF files, with no actual conversion so it's a quick process, like a copy.  But other formats, like AVCHD, they must be transcoded because Avid doesn't support them natively.

    With some formats, it's not as necessary to consolidate or transcode.  If I'm working with linked files of ProRes or DNxHD/DNxHR, for example, the software doesn't really have much of a problem with that.  But if I try editing linked AVCHD, the software absolutely chokes on it.  So if I start a project with any AVCHD media, I transcode it immediately after linking.

    The reason why you link rather than the old "import" is because linking allows you multiple options for how to proceed.  Once linked, which happens in an instant, you CAN immediately start working if you want.  Or, you can transcode (or consolidate) SOME of your media that you know you need immediately.  Or, you can transcode/consoilidate all of it.  And with either of those processes, you can do it in the background if you choose - so you can tolerate working with your linked media for a while, and then as your new consolidated/transcoded media comes online, you can periodically relink your sequence to it.  And when you're done, if you choose, you can relink your sequence to the original linked clips - but that's more useful when you decide to save space and work in low-quality or "proxy" edit resolutions such as DNxHR-LB at 1/4 or 1/16 resolution in order to save space.

    In short, formats like DNxHD/DNxHR and ProRes are good "intermediate" formats to work in.  Depending on your source media, you should generally be able to use the top two levels of either codec with no perceptible quality loss.  The files are much larger than the orginal, but the way these formats work, where each frame's data is self-contained ("intraframe") codecs, the computer flies through it.  By contrast, with more compressed formats like AVCHD, small file sizes are achieved by compression in "groups of pictures" where only a few frames are self-contained ("I-frames"), and all the other frames' data is simply calculated as a difference from the I-frames.  This keeps sizes and data rates down while achieving high visual quality, but computers have to work extra hard to constantly calculate that data for playback.  Bad for editing.

    This is where ProRes and DNxHD/DNxHR shine - they are intraframe codecs at high data rates, which are virtually lossless visually for many original formats, and great for editing and mastering.

    So, once you have your finished sequence, if you've already been working in one of the higher-level DNxHD/DHxHR, or ProRes formats, you can output a QuickTime Reference (a tiny MOV file with accompanying separate audio file), OR a same-as-source standalone QuickTime file - bring that SaS MOV or tiny reference MOV into an encoder like Apple Compressor or Sorenson Squeeze, and create a final web output, generally based on H.264 based on your destination's recommended encoding specs.

    This workflow generally works better than trying to output your final web file out of Avid - Avid is just not a good H.264 encoder at all.

    So overall, the link -> consolidate/transcode -> render -> output SaS/Ref -> 3rd party encode workflow is generally what I use, to give me the most options for what to do with my raw media, then get my media into Avid MXF early in the process, then edit, and then output in the fastest way possible.

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  • Fri, Nov 25 2016 5:10 PM In reply to

    Re: Rendering Issues.

    Ah okay!  Thank you I appreciate it and thank you everyone else as well.

     

    My footage was all shot on a 6d so it's not intense.

    My computer can handle the raw 6d linked media which is good 

     

  • Sat, Nov 26 2016 1:38 AM In reply to

    Re: Rendering Issues.

    How was that raw media recorded - directly in-camera as H.264 MOV?  Or was it recorded using an external recorder, in another format?

    If it's recorded in-camera - which recording option was it - the "All-I" option, or IPB?  It seems to me like All-I would be better for editing, so if that's what you're using, that might explain why you're having no issues.  Normally, H.264 media is terrible for editing.  But AVC-Intra is different - each frame stands alone.  So, if your computer handles it fine and you're having no problems editing it, you may do just fine just working with linked media.

    Still, when it's time to export, you'll need to either mixdown, consolidate, or transcode.  If the media was recorded as "All-I," it might be treated as AVC-Intra, an Avid-native format that can be consolidated - a big time-saver.  Either way, glad you're finding something that works on the edit side.

    As for export, if you do indeed have AVC-Intra media, you might not need to touch DNxHD or ProRes at all - you might consider setting your render codec as AVC-I and just doing a same-as-source export, OR consolidating the sequence and exporting as a QuickTime Reference - and in either case, bringing the resulting file into your encoding software and then outputting your final file.  But DNx/ProRes should also work fine.

    (SYSTEM 1) iMac Late 2012 27" (13,2), Mac OS X 10.12.6, Avid Media Composer 2018.10 w/Symphony, Intel Core i7 3.4 GHz, 32 GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce GTX... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Nov 29 2016 12:07 AM In reply to

    • Mondo
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    Re: Rendering Issues.

    usatraveler:
    But if I try editing linked AVCHD, the software absolutely chokes on it.  So if I start a project with any AVCHD media, I transcode it immediately after linking.

    I think that depends as much as anything on your system and processing power. I can edit AVCHD from my FS700 even in multicam with my other XDCam cameras flawlessly. Its a long GOP codec but it does have PCM audio so no audio compression to deal with. 

    On the other hand XAVC long depends on the edit system I'm on - my mid 2015 Macbook Pro struggles so I prefer to transcode (mind you it's an i7 but not a particularly powerful system). It plays alright but in multicam it can start to lag and reverse play doesn't work very well. I have edited with it in multicam but only on a more powerful desktop. 

    My multicams are fairly basic - 99% of the time a maximum of 4 streams. Usually two x XDCAMEX, FS700 and XAVC-L from a PXW-X70.

     

    HP Z820 16GB RAM Winx64Pro SP1/Xeon 2620 x 2/Quadro 4000 NitrisDX, Fiber client Unity client 5.3 Build 15440, 4 bay SSD dock (Addonics) Custom build: Asus... [view my complete system specs]

    John

    Can we go back to the way audio nodes used to be selected? Please? ie if you have audio nodes at the same time on selected tracks; then selecting 1 audio node selects them all at that time. Having to shift select nodes or add an in and out is time consuming and counter productive. At least make it an option.

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