Latest post Mon, Sep 22 2014 12:47 PM by Joe Goldman. 5 replies.
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  • Fri, Jun 22 2012 6:56 PM

    • panamedit
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    Need help with frame rate roulette

    I'm geting footage from multiple sources to edit, and the client wants everything delivered in 24fps.  I'm not sure where to start or how to convert the final edit.

    Main source footage was shot on a P2 camera in 1080/60i recording format, with the camera mode set at 24pa (DVCProHD).  Media Composer sees this as 1080i/59.94 and wants to ingest as such (see Avid chart at http://www.24p.com/HVX200_1.htm). 

    B-roll clips are H.264 .MOV files 1080 @ 24fps.

    It all looks good when importing to MC with 1080i/59.94 project settings. Do I just use Sorenson to make a 24p output from the mixed down edit?  Is there a best workflow for this?

    After scanning the forum, I think I'm more confused now than when I started.  Any clear direction or links to read would be helpful.  Thanks!

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  • Mon, Jun 25 2012 3:44 PM In reply to

    Re: Need help with frame rate roulette

    Sounds like you need to find a way to remove the 3:2 pulldown (or is it 2:3 pullup?)

    The 59.94 footage includes additional frames created and added to allow 24fps (well 23.98 fps) to play at the correct frame rate.

    If you ultimately needed 59.94fps media this would be ok but you only want 24fps so it seems to make sense to work at 24fps if possible.

     

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  • Mon, Jun 25 2012 4:36 PM In reply to

    Re: Need help with frame rate roulette

    You could work in 59.94i, then do a 24p output in Squeeze, but it is far from the cleanest method, which would be to cut in 23.976p or 24.000p.

    First, make absolutely sure what framerate the B-roll is, whether it is 24.000fps or if it is 23.976. If it's the first, you sort of have a problem, because 24.000 does not easily fit into 59.94i. Unfortunately, 24 is not always 24, and in the NTSC world, 9 times out of 10 it is actually 23.976.

    Other than that, the normal way to go about this is to import the source footage in projects with matching framerates. So import the P2 stuff into a 1080i59.94 project, and import the H264 clips in either a 1080p24 or a 1080p23.976 project (again, double check the actual framerate).

    Since your P2 footage is essentially 23.976p-inside-59.94i, with advanced pulldown (I know, they labeled it 24pA, but it is 23.976pA), all you need to get to 23.976p is a pulldown removal. Now normally, I would recommend you choose to display the Field Motion column in your source bins, and change its value from "Interlaced" to "2:3 Film", as that effectively tells Avid to discard the added pulldown fields, and you can then use the footage in progressive projects without any further effect/rendering. However, since your footage was shot with Advanced Pulldown, I'm not 100% sure that this will correctly be detected. Hopefully someone knows if advanced pulldown is going to be detected and removed correctly, as I am not sure.

    For editing, create/open a project in the destination framerate (in the NTSC world, it would likely be 1080p23.976, not 24.000p). Then via File->Open Bin, you can access all footage from the capture/import projects. You can splice these in at will, and Avid will automatically add Motion Adapters (green dot effects) that do any necessary framerateconversion. Your P2 footage will be seen as progressive 23.976p, and have no such adapter in a 23.976p project. If you were to use the P2 footage in a 24.00p project, there would be motion adapters to compensate for the framerate difference. Same goes for the H264: if that is 23.976fps you can use it straight up in a 23.976p project, if it's 24.000fps you can use it straight up in a 24.00p project, otherwise there will be a framerate conversion.

    The downside of 23.976<->24.000 framerate conversion is that this may occasionally cause dropped frames, so you may want to open the Motion Adapter (open Motion Effects Editor) and change its speed to 100% to avoid that. Alternatively, you could slow down the 24.000fps clips to 23.976p prior to editing.

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  • Tue, Jun 26 2012 11:16 PM In reply to

    • panamedit
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
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    Re: Need help with frame rate roulette

    Thanks very much for these details.  Very helpful!  I've imported the footage and made the edits, all looks good.  Now it's just a matter of making a QuickTime reference and encoding in Sorenson.  The client now wants delivery in ProRes, which means I'll have to import my output into FCP.  Any suggestions on the best output codec from Sorenson to use for importing to FCP?  H.264?

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  • Wed, Jun 27 2012 12:01 AM In reply to

    Re: Need help with frame rate roulette

    I've never seen imports into FCP with properly maintained video levels. Best way to create ProRes is to either capture over HDSDI, or to take your final sequence into MC v6 on a Mac, and transcode to Apple ProRes MXF, then export QT Same-As-Source. The result is a proper QTin ProRes.

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  • Mon, Sep 22 2014 12:47 PM In reply to

    • Joe Goldman
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Sun, Apr 1 2007
    • New York City
    • Posts 232
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    Re: Need help with frame rate roulette

    I've read this thread, and maybe I'm missing something.  My question:

    Does Avid Media Composer 7 or 8 offer a means for the simple extraction of 23.976 frames from a source which has Advanced Pulldown 2:3:3:2, such as the AG-HVX200A recording of 1080i 24pA under 60i  ? 

    (reasoning for recording original source is to enable 'smooth look" of dance sequences, yet ability to readily edit in a 23.976 project, in order to facilitate additional conversion to 25 PAL for European Broadcast as well).

     

    Thanks,

    Joe

    MCA 2.7.5 HP8200xw [view my complete system specs]
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