Latest post Thu, Feb 9 2012 2:01 PM by timoto. 21 replies.
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  • Mon, Feb 6 2012 3:30 PM

    • timoto
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    Avid RGB 4:4:4 to MainConcept H.264 MP4 4:4:4 Color/Colour Conversion Issues

     

    Hello

    After reading and posting to a very long thread: http://community.avid.com/forums/t/93322.aspx I felt it was time to post seperately.

    Target:
    My aim is to compress from my Avid same as source RGB DNxHD 4:4:4 QuickTime mov export to mpeg-4 h.264 4:2:0 for playback on a PC computer. Currently all attempts to do this end up with a washed out or over contrasting to the colours. Whilst I realise 4:2:0 is a sub sampled colour space, I believe that the output from various compressors are not giving the correct colour conversion that the encoder is supposed to support.

    So far I have found that the following compressors suffer from this issue, below each is a response from their respective technical support teams:

    Sorenson Squeeze
    "This issue was reported by a customer soon after the release of Version 8. It was immediately logged thereafter. I have spoken with QA about getting this prioritized for the next patch which is scheduled to be released next month, but i don't know if that fix will make it in time."

    Telestream Episode 6
    "Engineering is analyzing the color and gamma issues in Episode. It's an issue with the Main Concept SDK and probably will not be resolved until summer."

    Vimeo
    http://vimeo.com/forums/topic:46855
    "I uploaded an h.264 video and found that on playback it was way darker and contrastier than what I'd uploaded" reply "We are working on this color shifting issue"
    http://vimeo.com/forums/topic:46866

    Has anyone got further information on what appears to be a MainConcept encoder issue ? Ideally does anyone have experience of a compressor that does not fail on the colour conversion ?

    Thanks

     

    Media Composer 6.0.5, Windows 7 Pro x64, Dell M4400, C2D 2.54GHz, 8GB RAM [view my complete system specs]

    globaltimoto

    one man - around the world - in - a quest for gameplay

    globaltimoto.com

  • Mon, Feb 6 2012 4:06 PM In reply to

    Re: Avid RGB 4:4:4 to MainConcept H.264 MP4 4:4:4 Color/Colour Conversion Issues

    I use the main concept encoder in a number of encoding applications and I've never found the setting for RGB-16-235 levels check box to have an effect. It seesm to pass through what ever you give it.

    WHy can't you export as RGB levels if that's what you need at the end?

    ACI Moderator. I'm not employed by Avid or work for them. I just do this in my spare time. Normally using the current Media Composer version on My... [view my complete system specs]

     

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  • Mon, Feb 6 2012 6:26 PM In reply to

    • timoto
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    Re: Avid RGB 4:4:4 to MainConcept H.264 MP4 4:4:4 Color/Colour Conversion Issues

    Hello Pat

    My experience is that my Avid RGB exports look fine, but once compressed by MainConcept H.264 encoder in either Vimeo, Sorenson Squeeze or Telestream Episode 6 the values are not "passed through" the colour is converted in an undesireable way.

    and

    I'm not the only one reporting this as sighted in the original post.

    Pat, when was the last time you used the MainConcept encoder ? I'm just wondering since this issue has been raised within the last 3 months.

    If you have a small example of Avid RGB source and MainConcept output with correct colour conversion, please can you post here and perhaps list the compressor and settings used.

    Thank you

    Media Composer 6.0.5, Windows 7 Pro x64, Dell M4400, C2D 2.54GHz, 8GB RAM [view my complete system specs]

    globaltimoto

    one man - around the world - in - a quest for gameplay

    globaltimoto.com

  • Mon, Feb 6 2012 7:26 PM In reply to

    Re: Avid RGB 4:4:4 to MainConcept H.264 MP4 4:4:4 Color/Colour Conversion Issues

    What I meant was if I do an Avid 601 export and set the main concept setting to 16-235 it produces a washed out encode. Slecting RGB also produces a washed out encode.

    If I do an Avid RGB level export it makes a good looking encode.

    So I export as 601 for files that are going to or from Avids and RGB for the rest.

    When working with RGB file exports from Avid most software seems to be happy.

    I also tend to use the blackmagic 8 bit codec as I found that to have the least issues with level or gama shifts.

    ACI Moderator. I'm not employed by Avid or work for them. I just do this in my spare time. Normally using the current Media Composer version on My... [view my complete system specs]

     

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  • Mon, Feb 6 2012 7:53 PM In reply to

    • mjolnarn
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    Re: Avid RGB 4:4:4 to MainConcept H.264 MP4 4:4:4 Color/Colour Conversion Issues

    Tim, just for a test, could you try MS Expression Encoder ( free , but not H 264 unfortunately ) to see if that makes any differnce

     

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    Tomas 

     

  • Mon, Feb 6 2012 8:17 PM In reply to

    • timoto
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    Re: Avid RGB 4:4:4 to MainConcept H.264 MP4 4:4:4 Color/Colour Conversion Issues

    Hello mjolnarn

    Yes, the MS Expression Encoder output wmv has the correct colour conversion.

    However, I do need h.264, and though MS Expression Encoder Pro 4 does offer this in the purchased version, I'm not willing to spend the money to find that this sofware also suffers problems with MainConcept SDK or whatever it is that is causing incorrect colour conversions with MainConcept h.264 encoder.

    But thank you for pointing this software out all the same.

    Media Composer 6.0.5, Windows 7 Pro x64, Dell M4400, C2D 2.54GHz, 8GB RAM [view my complete system specs]

    globaltimoto

    one man - around the world - in - a quest for gameplay

    globaltimoto.com

  • Mon, Feb 6 2012 8:32 PM In reply to

    • timoto
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    Re: Avid RGB 4:4:4 to MainConcept H.264 MP4 4:4:4 Color/Colour Conversion Issues

    Hello Pat

    Yes, I have tried both methods of export and I am focusing on Avid RGB export prior to compression.

    Unfortunately all MainConcept h.264 encodes produce undesirable washed out colour conversion.

    To add to the list of software I have tested with is their very own product MainConcept Reference 2.2.0, also producing the same undesirable result.

    I realise you are probably very busy with other tasks, but if you feel you have the time and inclination you may download my test Avid RGB export and the MainConcept output so you can see exactly what I am dealing with. If you are able to compress the Avid export with h.264 and produce the desired colour conversion, I would very much like to know exactly which compression software and preset settings you used to achieve this.

    http://www.globaltimoto.com/Download/test-reference.zip

    Media Composer 6.0.5, Windows 7 Pro x64, Dell M4400, C2D 2.54GHz, 8GB RAM [view my complete system specs]

    globaltimoto

    one man - around the world - in - a quest for gameplay

    globaltimoto.com

  • Mon, Feb 6 2012 8:38 PM In reply to

    • mjolnarn
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    Re: Avid RGB 4:4:4 to MainConcept H.264 MP4 4:4:4 Color/Colour Conversion Issues

    timoto:

    Hello mjolnarn

    Yes, the MS Expression Encoder output wmv has the correct colour conversion.

    However, I do need h.264, and though MS Expression Encoder Pro 4 does offer this in the purchased version, I'm not willing to spend the money to find that this sofware also suffers problems with MainConcept SDK or whatever it is that is causing incorrect colour conversions with MainConcept h.264 encoder.

    But thank you for pointing this software out all the same.

    Hi Tim, I doubt that MS are using Mainconcept ( Now Rovi ) codecs , they might create their own so if you are in bad need to have this fixed, you might do a test with a trial.

    Mac: 17" Macbook Pro i7 2,66 ghz with 8Gb Ram, 500gb 7200rpm drive___ PC_NEW Win10 Pro Mbo Asus Rampage IV Black CPU Ivy Bridge-E 4960X ( = 12 x 4... [view my complete system specs]

    Tomas 

     

  • Mon, Feb 6 2012 9:30 PM In reply to

    • timoto
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    Re: Avid RGB 4:4:4 to MainConcept H.264 MP4 4:4:4 Color/Colour Conversion Issues

    Perhaps I wasn't clear.

     

    It doesn't seem possible to trial with the h.264 codec they have in MS Expression encoder 4 Pro, you have to purchase to find out.

     

    Media Composer 6.0.5, Windows 7 Pro x64, Dell M4400, C2D 2.54GHz, 8GB RAM [view my complete system specs]

    globaltimoto

    one man - around the world - in - a quest for gameplay

    globaltimoto.com

  • Tue, Feb 7 2012 6:34 AM In reply to

    • mjolnarn
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    Re: Avid RGB 4:4:4 to MainConcept H.264 MP4 4:4:4 Color/Colour Conversion Issues

    I assumed that the trial was full but was wrong, sorry for that, this is what is written at MS DL site

    *Due to licensing restrictions, the trial version does not have full functionality for Expression Encoder Pro.

    Sorry for that, I am using the payed Pro version myself

    Mac: 17" Macbook Pro i7 2,66 ghz with 8Gb Ram, 500gb 7200rpm drive___ PC_NEW Win10 Pro Mbo Asus Rampage IV Black CPU Ivy Bridge-E 4960X ( = 12 x 4... [view my complete system specs]

    Tomas 

     

  • Tue, Feb 7 2012 7:36 AM In reply to

    Re: Avid RGB 4:4:4 to MainConcept H.264 MP4 4:4:4 Color/Colour Conversion Issues

    timoto:

    Hello Pat

    I realise you are probably very busy with other tasks, but if you feel you have the time and inclination you may download my test Avid RGB export and the MainConcept output so you can see exactly what I am dealing with. If you are able to compress the Avid export with h.264 and produce the desired colour conversion, I would very much like to know exactly which compression software and preset settings you used to achieve this.

    http://www.globaltimoto.com/Download/test-reference.zip

    I'll see what I can do. Teaching the rest of the week and doing 3 sessions on AMA at BVE next week for Avid so spare time is slim,....

    ACI Moderator. I'm not employed by Avid or work for them. I just do this in my spare time. Normally using the current Media Composer version on My... [view my complete system specs]

     

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    T 07581 201248 | E pat@vet.co.uk | W www.vet.co.uk |


    Media Composer V8.2 Review Background Render

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  • Tue, Feb 7 2012 5:40 PM In reply to

    • timoto
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    Re: Avid RGB 4:4:4 to MainConcept H.264 MP4 4:4:4 Color/Colour Conversion Issues

    MainConcept tech support say that there is a known issue with compressing windows mov files. Their compressor makes a gamma alteration to attempt to accomodate, but it is not yet satisfactory.

    They suggest exporting as an uncompressed non mov file before compressing.

    I attempted this with an uncompressed avi, alas the results are still washed out.

    Media Composer 6.0.5, Windows 7 Pro x64, Dell M4400, C2D 2.54GHz, 8GB RAM [view my complete system specs]

    globaltimoto

    one man - around the world - in - a quest for gameplay

    globaltimoto.com

  • Wed, Feb 8 2012 6:32 PM In reply to

    • timoto
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    Re: Avid RGB 4:4:4 to MainConcept H.264 MP4 4:4:4 Color/Colour Conversion Issues

    Well I think I have got my solution now.

    After testing with 6 different compressors I found one that performs as expected. It uses x.264, doesn't ruin the colour conversion and it's free.

    Handbrake 0.9.5

    I had tried Handbrake in the past with various misgivings, but this time it's a real solution.

    The main trouble with MainConcept derived h.264 compression seems to be QuickTime gamma flag interpretation. So MainConcept Reference 2.2, Telestream 6 and Sorenson Squeeze 8.0.1 are doomed from the start.

    So as advised by MainConcept I tried with uncompressed non QT source, better, but still lacking.

    Finally Handbrake did the trick, and would accept my original Avid RGB QT mov, saving a lot of time indeed !

    Since Handbrake was using x.264 codec I thought I'd go back to Sorenson Squeeze to see if a commercial product could match this open source application.

    Sadly no ! Sorenson Squeeze using either QT mov or uncompressed avi source was determined to output odd colour conversions.

    Fixes: Sorenson Squeeze say this month or next patch whenever that might be, Telestream say summertime, but they are both dependent on MainConcept who didn't release a timeframe at all but did say "At this moment we have to work with it.".

    So Handbrake and x.264 save the day.

     

    Media Composer 6.0.5, Windows 7 Pro x64, Dell M4400, C2D 2.54GHz, 8GB RAM [view my complete system specs]

    globaltimoto

    one man - around the world - in - a quest for gameplay

    globaltimoto.com

  • Wed, Feb 8 2012 6:58 PM In reply to

    • cuervo
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    Re: Avid RGB 4:4:4 to MainConcept H.264 MP4 4:4:4 Color/Colour Conversion Issues

    I've said this half a dozen times, but, I'll say it again....

    Export QTref and encode with MPEG_streamclip. There are specific setting to input to MPEG_Streamclip to optimize the H.264 output for Youtube/vimeo.

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  • Wed, Feb 8 2012 7:11 PM In reply to

    Re: Avid RGB 4:4:4 to MainConcept H.264 MP4 4:4:4 Color/Colour Conversion Issues

    timoto:
    So Handbrake and x.264 save the day.

    The latest version of Squeeze has an option to encode using x.264.  If this open-source encoder outputs Web video better than MainConcept, I'd suggest using x.264 instead of h.264 within Squeeze.

    --
    Michael

    Media Composer 2018.4 w/Symphony | OS X 10.13.4 | iMac 2017 (Retina 5K, 27-inch, 2017) 4.2 GHz Intel Core i7 | 40 GB 2400 MHz DDR4 | TerraMaster 16TB external... [view my complete system specs]
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